13:50:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:50:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-i18n-irc
13:50:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:50:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:50:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:50:19 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2022
13:50:22 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/59c53b6b-4dcc-4d0e-9b1f-13949f19a6ac/20220818T150000
13:50:22 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:50:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:50:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:50:24 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:50:26 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:50:27 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:50:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:50:31 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC prep
13:50:33 <agendabot> agenda+ string-meta, string-search, specdev edits
13:50:35 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:50:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:52:54 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:54:18 <addison> present+ Addison
13:58:32 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
13:59:37 <addison> present+ Fuqiao, JcK
14:00:59 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi
14:01:10 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
14:01:33 <addison> present+ Eemeli
14:02:47 <fsasaki> present+ felix
14:03:50 <addison> present+ Bert
14:04:40 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
14:04:47 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:04:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:50 <addison> agenda?
14:05:40 <addison> agenda+ Unicode normalization to change structure of URL
14:06:01 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:06:09 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:07:02 <fsasaki> action-1185?
14:07:02 <trackbot> action-1185 -- Fuqiao Xue to Publish updated (deprecated) versions of i18n-html-tech-lang and i18n-html-tech-bidi -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:07:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1185
14:07:19 <fsasaki> action-1134?
14:07:19 <trackbot> action-1134 -- Addison Phillips to Create pr against canvas formatted text -- due 2022-04-07 -- OPEN
14:07:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1134
14:07:21 <fsasaki> pending
14:07:25 <fsasaki> action-1164?
14:07:25 <trackbot> action-1164 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to string-search#10 -- due 2022-07-07 -- OPEN
14:07:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1164
14:07:32 <fsasaki> addison: on the agenda today
14:08:04 <fsasaki> ... will keep the action open
14:08:07 <fsasaki> action-1173?
14:08:07 <trackbot> action-1173 -- Richard Ishida to Raise gap report on nnbsp issue in french -- due 2022-07-28 -- OPEN
14:08:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1173
14:08:13 <fsasaki> pending
14:08:26 <fsasaki> action-1178?
14:08:26 <trackbot> action-1178 -- Addison Phillips to Merge useful bits from i18n-html-tech-lang to ltli -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:08:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1178
14:08:36 <fsasaki> pending
14:09:01 <fsasaki> action-1181?
14:09:02 <trackbot> action-1181 -- Addison Phillips to Send xfq comments on pattern_white_space, etc. -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:09:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1181
14:09:08 <fsasaki> ongoing
14:09:37 <fsasaki> xfq: have not looked into whitespace issue yet
14:09:39 <fsasaki> action-1182?
14:09:39 <trackbot> action-1182 -- Addison Phillips to Follow up with payments and other groups with status on string-meta -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:09:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1182
14:09:49 <fsasaki> ongoing
14:09:57 <fsasaki> action-1183?
14:09:57 <trackbot> action-1183 -- Addison Phillips to Follow up with ecma-402 on next steps and start tc39 discussion -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:09:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1183
14:10:16 <fsasaki> ongoing
14:10:23 <fsasaki> action-1184?
14:10:23 <trackbot> action-1184 -- Addison Phillips to Update tag issue for string-meta -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:10:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1184
14:10:27 <fsasaki> done
14:10:30 <fsasaki> close action-1184
14:10:30 <trackbot> Closed action-1184.
14:10:36 <fsasaki> action-1185?
14:10:36 <trackbot> action-1185 -- Fuqiao Xue to Publish updated (deprecated) versions of i18n-html-tech-lang and i18n-html-tech-bidi -- due 2022-08-18 -- OPEN
14:10:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1185
14:10:47 <fsasaki> pending
14:11:15 <fsasaki> xfq: I have not deprecated notes before
14:11:26 <fsasaki> ... need to look how to do that
14:11:35 <fsasaki> addison: we may have an example somewhere
14:11:41 <fsasaki> richard: xml unicode?
14:11:47 <fsasaki> addison: that is a good example
14:11:59 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/unicode-xml/
14:12:13 <fsasaki> richard: need to put something e.g. in the status clearly visible so that people don't miss it
14:12:45 <fsasaki> richard: we would just use CSV for the update
14:13:08 <fsasaki> ... we need to alert the webmaster that we deprecate things so that he can put some tags on the doc
14:13:17 <fsasaki> addison: the documents are in TR
14:13:25 <fsasaki> richard: yes, they are not recommendations
14:13:44 <xfq> s/CSV/CVS/
14:14:13 <fsasaki> xfq: I need to ask the webmaster what the recommended way is
14:14:29 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:14:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:04 <fsasaki> xfq: tpac 2022 is calling for videos for group updates
14:15:16 <fsasaki> ... would we want to create a short video about our updates?
14:15:46 <fsasaki> addison: would be nice, a question of time
14:15:53 <fsasaki> xfq: deadline for the video is august 26
14:16:06 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2021/Demos_and_Group_updates#Best_Practices_for_Recording_Videos
14:16:06 <fsasaki> ... should be a short video
14:16:13 <fsasaki> ... above are the guidelines
14:18:10 <fsasaki> addison: happy to participate in this, but would not have time for feedback cycles
14:18:47 <fsasaki> xfq: I can try to make an initial version, not sure if we have time for feedback cycles
14:19:11 <fsasaki> richard: you could put slides together and send these out, rather than starting with the video
14:19:27 <addison> action: xfq: create slides for tpac video and circulate for review
14:19:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1186 - Create slides for tpac video and circulate for review [on Fuqiao Xue - due 2022-08-25].
14:19:59 <addison> action: addison: sync with fuqiao about tpac video
14:19:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1187 - Sync with fuqiao about tpac video [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-08-25].
14:20:20 <xfq> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/language
14:20:34 <fsasaki> xfq: found an API, see above, discussed this with richard
14:21:23 <fsasaki> ... we might want to report some issues back to the browser vendors
14:21:43 <fsasaki> ... e.g. about relations between language tags, case etc.
14:21:55 <fsasaki> ... we want to discuss this to see what we should do about this API
14:23:08 <fsasaki> addison: API in some cases mutates the tag, has preferences for some tags compared to others ...
14:23:22 <fsasaki> ... the case folding is not a bug, case does not matter in BCP 47
14:23:37 <xfq> if (navigator.language === 'zh-CN') { ... }
14:23:37 <fsasaki> richard: if you put zh-hans in browser preferences as first preference
14:23:53 <fsasaki> .. and you might have zh-Cn, it will not recognize that you want Chinese
14:24:09 <addison> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/system-state.html#dom-navigator-language-dev
14:24:14 <fsasaki> ... it is not capable of matching properly
14:24:27 <addison> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/system-state.html#a-plausible-language
14:24:29 <fsasaki> richard: I don't know if it matches partial things
14:24:47 <fsasaki> ... a bunch of issues around detecting the languages
14:24:58 <fsasaki> ... and additional issues about how this is used by people
14:25:18 <fsasaki> ... it must be useful for some circumstances on when and how to use this
14:25:37 <fsasaki> addison: HTML has guidance on browsable language
14:25:51 <fsasaki> s/browsable/plausible/
14:26:00 <fsasaki> addison: accept-language is the same thing
14:26:15 <fsasaki> ... modern browsers make it harder to manage the list manually, but it is not impossible
14:26:25 <fsasaki> ... mobile browsers set it from the OS value
14:26:51 <fsasaki> ... I have not testet it - do we have tests for navigator.language? Or accept-language?
14:27:08 <fsasaki> richard: no. The i18n checker tells you what your accept language settings are, that is it
14:27:08 <xfq> s/testet/tested/
14:29:07 <fsasaki> addison: seems to be a project (for us). Is there any urgency?
14:29:10 <fsasaki> xfq: no urgency
14:29:17 <xfq> if (navigator.language === 'zh-CN') { ... }
14:29:23 <fsasaki> ... I found this because I found websites using this
14:29:31 <fsasaki> ... see above JS snippet
14:29:52 <fsasaki> addison: let's file issues against spec dev
14:30:04 <fsasaki> ... we then can come back to this later
14:30:15 <fsasaki> ... xfq, do you want to file the issues?
14:30:17 <fsasaki> xfq: sure
14:30:27 <fsasaki> richard: what were people using this for?
14:30:36 <fsasaki> xfq: I forgot the exact use case
14:30:46 <fsasaki> ... it may have been for currencies
14:30:54 <fsasaki> ... would create other possible issues
14:31:43 <fsasaki> richard: one should do matching based on bcp 47
14:31:53 <fsasaki> ... would enable you to match more things than you had be doing
14:33:23 <fsasaki> (further discussion on use cases for navigator language)
14:33:39 <fsasaki> richard: another infoshare
14:33:57 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/26
14:33:58 <fsasaki> ... asmus has worked on FAQ for the Unicode consortium for Unicode on the web
14:34:16 <fsasaki> ... have made a lot of comments and asmus created a new version
14:34:33 <fsasaki> ... have a look at the document, it is quite useful for us. It points back to our documents
14:34:54 <fsasaki> ... similar to MDM pointing to our stuff, and we point to them
14:35:06 <fsasaki> ... here is the same thing with the Unicode consortium
14:35:17 <fsasaki> ... if you have additional thoughts, please add the the thread
14:35:20 <fsasaki> xfq: very useful
14:35:21 <fsasaki> +1
14:35:25 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:35:25 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:35:33 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:36:01 <fsasaki> addison: incoming request on secure payment
14:36:44 <r12a> agenda?
14:37:09 <fsasaki> atsushi: sent agenda+ for webtransport
14:37:48 <fsasaki> addison: ok, so we have some pending issues to review. How about wcag 2.2?
14:37:57 <fsasaki> atsushi: I sent an agenda plus about that
14:38:03 <fsasaki> ... last week
14:38:35 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:38:35 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:38:40 <atsushi> webtransport pendings -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3As%3Awebtransport
14:39:04 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1570
14:40:53 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1571
14:41:05 <fsasaki> addison: agree with the comment 1570. No objections from the group
14:42:44 <fsasaki> ... on 1571: I would add a link to a related comment
14:42:55 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/79
14:44:04 <fsasaki> ... include a link to string meta. Say that we are in the process of working on this with other groups
14:44:08 <addison> agenda?
14:44:16 <fsasaki> WG agrees with issue 1571
14:44:59 <fsasaki> addison: did you have questions on wcag?
14:44:59 <atsushi> WCAG 2.2 pending -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1573
14:45:09 <atsushi> discussion -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2022Aug/0000.html
14:46:36 <fsasaki> addison: agree with the comment
14:47:18 <fsasaki> xfq: the section has several examples related to i18n, e.g. address and credit card
14:47:27 <fsasaki> addison: they got the list from HTML auto fill
14:47:46 <fsasaki> ... some data they put in here: they are quoting HTML
14:47:53 <addison> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#autofill
14:48:00 <r12a> The binary gender system in Western society is far from universally accepted. On the Polynesian island of Samoa, near Fiji, fa’afafines and fa’afatamas are widely regarded as third and fourth genders, alongside male and female. Read on to discover more.
14:48:14 <fsasaki> addison: the examples in HTML are more concrete
14:50:03 <fsasaki> addison: your comment is about tagging the language
14:50:13 <fsasaki> ... we could say more things about other i18n aspects in this section
14:51:03 <fsasaki> ... no objection to the language tag comment, go ahead
14:52:24 <fsasaki> discussion on what to do about other i18n aspects in the section
14:53:18 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:53:18 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Unicode normalization to change structure of URL -- taken up [from addison]
14:53:36 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/626
14:54:13 <fsasaki> addison describes the issue
14:56:15 <fsasaki> richard: our article is quoted about NFC
14:56:30 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-css-normalization
14:56:30 <fsasaki> ... we say "you should write your articles in NFC, or convert it"
14:56:37 <fsasaki> ... we need to check those older articles
14:56:45 <fsasaki> ... make sure if we give the right advise
14:56:55 <fsasaki> ... we also need to talk about normalization
14:57:09 <fsasaki> ...  I looked into the normalization HTML page
14:57:18 <fsasaki> ... the page needs some attention
14:57:37 <fsasaki> ... our guidance is: if you have a choice and it makes sense, using NFC is good
14:57:42 <fsasaki> richard: yes, for new content, use NFC
14:58:13 <fsasaki> addison: you experience problems with identifiers that have a different form
14:58:21 <fsasaki> ... "be consistent" is our guideance
14:58:38 <fsasaki> s/guideance/guidance
14:58:58 <fsasaki> addison: we probably need to say s.t.
14:59:48 <fsasaki> further discussion on unicode normalization forms
15:00:12 <fsasaki> addison: do we need to rewrite this in other articles we have, or revisit this?
15:00:27 <fsasaki> ... and do we need to issue some guidance?
15:00:37 <fsasaki> ... charmod norm does not have solid guidance here
15:01:28 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-norm/#normalizationChoice
15:01:57 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/unicode-migration/#normalization
15:04:07 <fsasaki> discussion on further guidance about the topic
15:05:07 <fsasaki> atsushi: japanese hiragana or katakana characters can be part of URL
15:05:21 <fsasaki> ... some of these characters may have two normalization forms for such characters
15:05:34 <fsasaki> ... not sure what that would mean for web services
15:05:48 <fsasaki> ... if a system stores user input directly, e.g. from mac file names
15:06:02 <fsasaki> ... the form will be a two character form
15:06:14 <fsasaki> ... if a client uses NFC applied, it will be one character
15:06:29 <atsushi> が
15:06:42 <fsasaki> addison: which characters are you thinking of?
15:07:26 <fsasaki> atsushi: see above example, with dakuten
15:07:31 <xfq_> xfq_ has joined #i18n
15:07:45 <addison> action: addison: reply to url#626
15:07:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1188 - Reply to url#626 [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-08-25].
15:08:05 <fsasaki> addison: I will reply to 626. Does somebody want to do editing the QA for HTML CSS normalization?
15:08:09 <fsasaki> Richard: will do
15:08:21 <addison> action: richard: update qa-html-css-normalization
15:08:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1189 - Update qa-html-css-normalization [on Richard Ishida - due 2022-08-25].
15:08:38 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:08:38 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:14 <r12a> "The best way to ensure that these match is to use one particular Unicode normalization form for all authored content. As we said above, the W3C recommends NFC."
15:09:24 <fsasaki> adjourned
15:09:25 <r12a> in https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-css-normalization#n11nhow
15:09:31 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:09:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
15:10:05 <addison> zakim, who is here?
15:10:05 <Zakim> Present: Addison, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard, Atsushi, Eemeli, felix, Bert
15:10:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see xfq_, JcK, xfq, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, atsushi, r12a, Github, hadleybeeman, astearns, cwilso, bigbluehat, hsivonen, csarven, sangwhan, koji, Mek, eemeli, florian,
15:10:07 <Zakim> ... trackbot, agendabot, Bert
15:10:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:10:31 <addison> close action-1180
15:10:32 <trackbot> Closed action-1180.
15:11:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:45:49 <addison> zakim, bye
15:45:49 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard, Atsushi, Eemeli, felix, Bert
15:45:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n