11:46:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-supported
11:46:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-irc
11:47:26 <Makoto> zakim, start meeting
11:47:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:47:27 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Makoto
11:48:03 <Makoto> meeting:Accessibility Supported Subgroup Meeting - Week 5
11:48:14 <Makoto> rrsagent, make logs world
11:48:39 <Makoto> Agenda+ 1. Documentation Check-in.
11:48:54 <Makoto> Agenda+ Kick off "Pros and Cons discussion"
11:49:20 <Makoto> regrets:Poornima
11:58:14 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller has joined #wcag3-supported
12:00:44 <LauraBMiller> present + Laura B Miller
12:01:40 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-supported
12:01:41 <Makoto> present+
12:01:55 <bruce_bailey> present+
12:04:26 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_bailey
12:04:46 <bruce_bailey> Reviewing working doc:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit
12:05:18 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:05:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1. Documentation Check-in. -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:05:50 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  review use cases, then pro and con discussion
12:06:58 <bruce_bailey> Use case 2 , 3, 4 well in progress
12:07:28 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  Finished 508 using heading from Makoto use case
12:07:38 <bruce_bailey> ...track changes is new stuff
12:08:11 <bruce_bailey> One highlight:  testing with AT not popular
12:08:33 <bruce_bailey> ... instead Trusted Tester, ICT Baseline is newer
12:08:38 <bruce_bailey> ... some links
12:09:13 <bruce_bailey> ... reasons not to test with AT is that experienced developers rare
12:09:47 <bruce_bailey> ... testing with AT does happen if agency knows the configuration and the employees
12:10:08 <bruce_bailey> ... also testing with AT if process driven testing leaves gaps
12:10:29 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.rlwaf99rco0d
12:12:03 <bruce_bailey> Bruce gives some background on DHS
12:14:10 <bruce_bailey> Bill Peterson, DHS (formally ED0
12:14:18 <bruce_bailey> Allen Hoffman, IRS
12:14:37 <bruce_bailey> Robert Baker, SSA
12:15:45 <bruce_bailey> Kathy Eng, formally DOJ, elevated Trusted Tester to curriculm
12:16:41 <bruce_bailey> Goal is to turn entry level IT specialist into accessibility testers
12:17:11 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  If I was looking for accredidation, is TT route
12:17:58 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  Feds hiring probably ask.
12:18:21 <bruce_bailey> ... Microsoft has incorporated into their on-boarding
12:19:26 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  508 is from Rehabilation Act
12:21:24 <bruce_bailey> Things were going strong in 2000, with publication of 508 Standards
12:22:48 <bruce_bailey> 508 took back seat to security after 9-11, but that was enough for initial traction
12:23:40 <LauraBMiller> +q
12:24:15 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  couple of my own suggestions at end
12:25:10 <bruce_bailey> Laura Miller:  There are solutions for testing such as inspect tool, aids for people who are not experience at users
12:25:28 <bruce_bailey> ... JAWS inspect has an option for review website
12:25:33 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:25:48 <Makoto> ack Laura
12:26:04 <bruce_bailey> ...there are other 3rd party tools geared for testing , not just scanning
12:27:14 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  I forgot to mention ANDI -- which was huge
12:27:20 <Makoto> ack bruce
12:27:22 <bruce_bailey> q-
12:28:07 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  SSA had developers, and was able to develop this open source tool which they needed to move away from AT-oriented testing
12:28:45 <bruce_bailey> ... nowadays Trusted Tester (and Baseline) methodology heavily based on ANDI features and use
12:28:49 <Makoto> Accessibility Support Database by W3C  https://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
12:29:19 <bruce_bailey> ... ANDI open source, from SSA.gov/accessibility/andi
12:30:13 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Another driver in Japan is that fewer and fewer developers conversant with HTML....
12:30:43 <bruce_bailey> ... one project I worked recently with Shadi was WAI accessibility support database...
12:31:30 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
12:32:17 <bruce_bailey> ... this was one of the last projects Shadi was working on before leaving W3C, large database but not complete
12:32:59 <bruce_bailey> ... not fully endorsed by AGWG but it is a pretty good proof of concept and has many ARIA techniques in it for example...
12:33:24 <bruce_bailey> ... database includes screen reader compatibility results as well
12:34:10 <bruce_bailey> ... database is multilingual as well , so works for Japanese screen readers
12:34:45 <bruce_bailey> ... we don't have to compile test procedures and expected results ourself
12:34:58 <bruce_bailey> ... please take a look if you have not used before
12:35:16 <bruce_bailey> ... we might want to recommend additional funding
12:35:31 <LauraBMiller> q+ https://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
12:36:41 <bruce_bailey> ... question for bruce if u.s. feds interested in this kind of work
12:36:41 <Makoto> ack https
12:37:49 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  Yes!  That database and their are other initiative collecting shared testing, namely ACT which Wilco Fiers and Kathy Eng co-chair
12:38:48 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  login should only be needed for adding test cases, but much is public facing, other portions should work with W3C log in
12:39:36 <bruce_bailey> Makoto, moving on use case 3 and 4
12:40:25 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  see link in use case 3 for what AT supports ARIA aspects
12:40:42 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  Use case 4 Accessibility OVerlays
12:40:56 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.pfjwt2cbuk2n
12:42:13 <bruce_bailey> ... addressing overlays head-on is that one point of tension is that overlays tend to interfere with default behavior  of screen reading software
12:42:36 <bruce_bailey> .. example include code snip hiding button
12:43:41 <bruce_bailey> ... question "is it conformant" when functionality is removed -- so only seems accessible, problems are masked rather than fixed
12:44:19 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Concern is that "meets WCAG 2" then conformant -- passes a test -- but functionality removed.
12:44:41 <bruce_bailey> ... That is a challenging question for WCAG3 to address.
12:45:05 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  Analog is removing all images -- so not alt failures !
12:45:32 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Is Overlay characterized as Assistive Technology?
12:46:39 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  It is a mix, so that is the challenge.  Some add features (like speech) while other overlay strip out any code which is non-conforming -- but that removes features...
12:47:17 <bruce_bailey> ... then there is other risk of overlays conflict with end-user AT
12:48:26 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We had a similar question with out testing, to audit with Overlay enabled or not.  Should we test the website with each function on?
12:48:47 <bruce_bailey> ... Do we care about website when overlay functions are off?
12:51:09 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Our organization is taking the position site must work without overlay.
12:51:43 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  In federal space, there are example with overlays and widgets that are good models, DOI, SSA home page, Whitehouse.gov...
12:51:58 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:51:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Kick off "Pros and Cons discussion" -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:52:23 <bruce_bailey> ... but generally overlays are problematic, and point of accessible design is compatibility with AT so overlays are counterproductive.
12:52:51 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Moving to pro/con topic...
12:53:35 <bruce_bailey> ... have a document to share, please list pros and cons of keeping "accessibility supported" concept in WCAG3
12:54:25 <bruce_bailey> ... for now, please fill out individually and future meeting we can start to consolidate as brain storming exercise...
12:54:39 <bruce_bailey> ...continue discussion next week.
12:55:15 <bruce_bailey> ... this sort of exercise is not that familiar to me, so I welcome suggestions
12:55:30 <bruce_bailey> ... please start to fill out by next week.
12:56:08 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  so quick thought in all four quadrants please, keep / not keep , pros / cons
12:56:46 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:57:06 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Hope to hear from AWK and Pournima next week as well.
12:57:17 <bruce_bailey> q-
12:57:44 <bruce_bailey> ... pro/cons keep/not keep in same document at end
12:57:54 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.heym9casb735
12:59:42 <bruce_bailey> rssagent, make minutes
13:00:25 <bruce_bailey> zakim, end meeting
13:00:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Makoto, bruce_bailey
13:00:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Zakim
13:00:30 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bruce_bailey; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:00:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-supported
13:19:05 <Makoto> present+ LauraBMiller
13:19:13 <Makoto> present+ Rachael
13:42:48 <Makoto> s/one project I worked recently with Shadi/one W3C WAI's prokect lead by Shadi
13:43:37 <Makoto> s/one of the last projects/one of the projects
13:44:36 <Makoto> s/database is multilingual as well/database can be multilingual as well
13:45:45 <Makoto> s/so works for Japanese screen readers/so will work for Japanese screen readers for example
13:48:51 <Makoto> s/We had a similar question with out testing/We just came up with a question on testing
13:54:20 <Makoto> s/Do we care about website when overlay functions are off?/Do we need to care about a web page turning overlay functions on?
13:55:52 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:55:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
13:58:19 <Makoto> regrets:AWK
13:58:26 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:58:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
14:06:14 <Makoto> regrets:poornima, AWK
14:06:20 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:06:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
14:07:41 <Makoto> present- Laura B Miller
14:07:50 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:07:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
14:09:03 <Makoto> s/W3C WAI's prokect/W3C WAI's project
14:09:10 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:09:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
14:11:05 <Makoto> rrsagent, please part
14:11:05 <RRSAgent> I see no action items