16:56:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/04-aria-irc
16:56:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
16:56:08 <spectranaut> meeting: ARIA WG
16:56:18 <spectranaut> chair: ValerieYoung
16:56:23 <spectranaut> agendabot, find agenda
16:56:23 <agendabot> spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
16:56:24 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220804T130000
16:56:24 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:56:24 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3zugBTi
16:56:24 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zLw9Cz
16:56:26 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:56:29 <agendabot> agenda+  -> TPAC Agenda - add tag F2FCandidate by August 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/labels/F2FCandidate
16:56:32 <agendabot> agenda+  -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
16:56:35 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc
17:01:26 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:01:50 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria
17:02:13 <prka> prka has joined #aria
17:02:25 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:02:42 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:02:51 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:02:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3zugBTi -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:52 <arigilmore> present+
17:02:53 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:03:01 <jcraig> present+
17:03:06 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #aria
17:03:12 <jaunita_george> present+
17:03:37 <jcraig> spectranaut: scribing is fun!
17:03:54 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
17:03:54 <Zakim> agendum 1, -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3zugBTi, closed
17:03:55 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:03:55 <Zakim> 2. -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zLw9Cz [from agendabot]
17:04:00 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 2
17:04:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zLw9Cz -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:20 <jcraig> zakim, close item 2
17:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 2, -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zLw9Cz, closed
17:04:21 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:04:21 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:04:27 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 3
17:04:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:09 <Cyns> Cyns has joined #Aria
17:05:36 <jcraig> Deep Dive next week is about popups.
17:05:40 <jcraig> zakim, close item 3
17:05:40 <Zakim> agendum 3, -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates, closed
17:05:42 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:42 <Zakim> 4. -> TPAC Agenda - add tag F2FCandidate by August 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/labels/F2FCandidate [from agendabot]
17:05:44 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 4
17:05:44 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC Agenda - add tag F2FCandidate by August 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/labels/F2FCandidate -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:03 <jcraig> Siri: Who will attend TPAC
17:06:39 <jcraig> spectranaut MichaelC JamesN Bryan and jcraig will attend.... possibly Siri
17:07:00 <jcraig> s/attend/attend in person/
17:07:29 <jcraig> curt can only attend remotely
17:07:33 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:07:42 <CurtBellew> present+
17:07:48 <jcraig> s/curt/CurtBellew/
17:08:05 <jcraig> spectranaut: any remotes?
17:08:17 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
17:08:25 <jcraig> Scott, mark, Peter, and Jaunita
17:08:25 <siri_> present+
17:09:22 <jcraig> spectranaut: GitHub tag created for F2F candidates. please add. Will discuss on the 16th
17:09:32 <jcraig> zakim, close item 4
17:09:32 <Zakim> agendum 4, -> TPAC Agenda - add tag F2FCandidate by August 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/labels/F2FCandidate, closed
17:09:34 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:34 <Zakim> 5. -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 [from agendabot]
17:09:36 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 5
17:09:36 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:09:48 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
17:10:15 <jcraig> spectranaut: this is a blocking issue for 1.2
17:11:18 <jcraig> JamesN researched; discovered this was a formal decision by ARIA in @@@?
17:11:47 <jcraig> s/@@@/2016/
17:11:48 <spectranaut> 2016 decision on aria-roledescription: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2092
17:11:50 <Cyns> Partial regrets, hoping to join later
17:11:51 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:11:55 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:12:31 <jcraig> What def of whitespace is being used in WebKit?
17:12:38 <jcraig> jcraig: will look it up
17:13:13 <jcraig> spectranaut: how to triage since this is blocking 1.2 and this was a formal decision previously
17:14:35 <jcraig> jcraig: motion to triage to 1.3 since this is late in 1.2
17:17:04 <jcraig> scotto: NVDA will suppress role descriptions using this technique on Windows; JAWS ignores and speaks it anyway
17:17:16 <prka> scribe: pkra
17:17:58 <prka> aaron: my concern is that considering all the ways authors can go wrong will be a pain for us.
17:18:14 <prka> jcraig: right. I don't see how it blocks 1.2
17:18:32 <prka> aaron: could just say "space" and figure out in 1.3
17:18:40 <prka> jcraig: we still need to verify implementations
17:18:48 <prka> aaron: we're currently implementing it
17:19:10 <prka> jcraig: underspecified leaves potential problems
17:19:20 <prka> aaron: I'm mainly concerned about overcomplicating the code.
17:19:32 <prka> ... were implementors invovled in the original decision?
17:19:42 <prka> ... feels like not
17:20:15 <prka> spectranaut: if AT can still decide what to do (since it's exposed separately), then there's no real loss.
17:20:33 <prka> ... I'm moved by the argument that it's an author error and AT can still decide what to do with it
17:20:44 <prka> ... but we want to focus on getting 1.2 out the door.
17:21:01 <prka> ... we should work out where else we refer to whitespace in our specs.
17:21:11 <prka> ... e.g., aria-braille
17:21:30 <prka> aaron: on mac seems to only check length 0.
17:22:05 <prka> spectranaut: in ARIA spec, whitespace is only mentioned in braille props.
17:22:19 <prka> scott: but there must be something in, e.g., accname.
17:22:41 <prka> jcraig: what if role=button and roleDescription is empty string.
17:22:51 <prka> ... implementation might want to invalidate use of role.
17:23:00 <prka> ... e.g., if it's not focusable.
17:23:57 <prka> aaron: if we find out safari and firefox just check empty string, can we change the spec?
17:25:12 <prka> michael: it would be good to match both specs. but also good to put changes until later
17:25:36 <prka> spectranaut: so we need to know what webkit does.
17:25:40 <prka> ... and work on braille props.
17:26:16 <prka> pkra: braille props were following the regular ones.
17:26:24 <prka> ... so I'd suggest to keep doing that
17:26:46 <prka> spectranaut: makes sense.
17:27:18 <prka> jcraig: that's probably fine
17:28:21 <prka> spectranaut: so perhaps we can decide on the empty string. At least we should not slow down the release of 1.2
17:28:36 <prka> ... of aria
17:29:34 <MarkMcCarthy> scribe: prka
17:29:53 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
17:29:57 <prka> s/scribe: pkra/scribe: prka
17:30:16 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:30:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:30:36 <prka> spectranaut: how about a formal decision to change it to empty string.
17:31:01 <prka> aaron: +1 we'd have to update Chrome.
17:31:41 <prka> scott: this way, we're not cutting off the discussion for later.
17:31:48 <jcraig> s/on mac seems/Firefox on Mac seems/
17:32:07 <prka> ... I'm concerned about people actively suppressing roles
17:32:47 <prka> spectranaut: I'll want jnurthen and Firefox's opinion on this.
17:32:55 <prka> aaron: james teh commented on the issue
17:33:00 <jcraig> s/underspecified leaves potential problems/underspecified leaves potential for implementers to do what they think best in the meantime/
17:33:05 <prka> spectranaut: right, he wrote it sounds like an authoring error.
17:33:32 <prka> spectranaut: I'll talk to jnurthen and suggest a formal decision on the mailing list.
17:33:46 <prka> zakim, next item
17:33:46 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:00 <prka> spectranaut: first step: going through all issues in the milestone assigned to you.
17:35:13 <prka> ... tag them with a few different tags as per my email.
17:36:06 <jcraig> present+ sarah_h Robert_Perez arigilmore prka spectranaut
17:36:14 <prka> ... all: reminder to take a look
17:36:26 <jcraig> present+ scotto
17:36:45 <jcraig> present+ Aaron_Leventhal
17:37:00 <jcraig> present+ MichaelC
17:37:06 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:37:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:44:59 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria