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14:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-irc
14:01:42 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:01:48 <kaz> present+ kaz_Ashimura
14:02:36 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
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14:06:03 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
14:06:46 <McCool> topic: Review Comments
14:07:04 <McCool> seb: ML has to leave early, so suggest we review these review comments first
14:07:16 <McCool> ... ege also split them into multiple issues
14:07:37 <McCool> ... there is also a PR where I tried to address some of these comments
14:07:49 <McCool> ... I think many of them are addressed, but some still open
14:08:14 <McCool> ... there is a list of issues, search for [OracleReview]
14:08:34 <McCool> ml: I added comments to many of them, best to skim list from top to bottom
14:08:51 <McCool> subtopic: issue #1619
14:09:03 <McCool> seb: TM had versioning
14:09:15 <McCool> ... is special section, with an example
14:09:51 <McCool> ml: it looks like first line has been changed to an assertion, so resolved
14:10:41 <McCool> ... however, says SHOULD, is not mandatory
14:11:11 <McCool> seb: however, is also optional in TD, up to the application
14:11:27 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
14:11:39 <McCool> ml: ok, not as strong a guarantee
14:11:52 <McCool> seb: think this makes sense to include in a profile
14:11:59 <McCool> ml: ok, let's close this one
14:12:08 <McCool> subtopic: issue #1618
14:12:19 <McCool> ml: this is about a section marked as WIP
14:12:32 <McCool> seb: covered by a PR already available
14:13:03 <McCool> ... PR #1558
14:13:21 <McCool> ... which deletes the note
14:14:35 <McCool> subtopic: #1617
14:15:41 <kaz> s/ege also/Ege also/
14:16:22 <dape> q+
14:17:16 <kaz> i|TM had version|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1619 Issue 1619 - [OracleReview] 11.3.1 Versioning|
14:17:28 <dape> ack dape
14:17:32 <McCool> mm: I think the security TF needs to review this one; don't want redundant assertions
14:17:51 <McCool> ... however, should look also at other things, like whether Maps can be empty
14:17:53 <kaz> i|this is about|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1618 Issue 1618 - [OracleReview] 11. Thing Model|
14:17:57 <McCool> subtopic: issue 1616
14:18:02 <McCool> seb: about Form
14:18:21 <McCool> ml: ExpectedResponse and AdditionalExpectedResponse
14:18:52 <kaz> i|1617|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1558 PR 1558 - WIP: addresses CR 1.1 candidate review from Oracle|
14:19:34 <McCool> mm: I think it was a technical problem with compatibility
14:19:37 <kaz> i|think the secu|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1617 Issue 1617 - [OracleReview] 6.3.4 securityDefinitions and security|
14:19:48 <McCool> seb: see also the cited PR, tried to address this
14:19:55 <McCool> subtopic: issue #1615
14:20:08 <kaz> i|about Form|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1616 Issue 1616 - [OracleReview] 5.3.4.2 Form|
14:20:23 <McCool> seb: had looked at this in the past as well; defacto semantic versioning, but there was some pushback
14:20:39 <kaz> i|had looked|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1615 Issue 1615 - [OracleReview] 5.3.1.6 VersionInfo|
14:20:52 <McCool> ... but some companies have their own strategy, which is why is optional
14:21:25 <McCool> ml: issue is that it is not an RFC2119 assertion, just informative
14:22:05 <McCool> mm: I am ok with making this an assertion; should not impact testing much
14:22:10 <McCool> seb: ok with me also
14:22:41 <McCool> ... I will do a PR
14:24:45 <McCool> subtopic: #1614
14:25:15 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1614 Issue 1614 - [OracleReview] OAuth2SecurityScheme
14:25:22 <McCool> mm: agree this sentence should be moved out of the table and made an assertion.
14:25:46 <McCool> ... we can look at in the next security call
14:25:59 <McCool> subtopic: issue #1613
14:26:27 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:26:55 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1613 Issue 1613 - [OracleReview] 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme
14:27:11 <McCool> ml: some things here not related to security
14:28:27 <McCool> mm: think we should remove some of these and break it down into different issues
14:29:43 <McCool> seb: think it makes sense to add cancelallactions
14:29:52 <McCool> mm: but not for an emergency stop
14:30:26 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-td
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14:31:11 <McCool> mm: we also need some implementations for some related new ops, e.g. "cancelaction"
14:32:36 <McCool> seb: plenty of such features, do we need it?
14:33:04 <McCool> ml: you can work around this specific op
14:33:19 <McCool> mm: I brought it up since I thought it was in profile
14:33:35 <McCool> ml: ok, let me think about it and check profile
14:33:43 <McCool> ... profile only uses queryallactions
14:33:56 <McCool> seb: so ok to postpone to next version
14:34:10 <McCool> ml: have to go, unfortunately
14:34:30 <McCool> seb: would be good to discuss rest using the issue tracker
14:34:38 <McCool> ml: ok.  have to go, take care
14:35:46 <McCool> topic: PR #1629
14:36:06 <McCool> seb: simple, just updating change log to be consistent with now-published WD
14:36:31 <McCool> mm: let's do it, easy
14:36:34 <McCool> seb: merging
14:36:48 <kaz> q+
14:37:36 <kaz> ack k
14:37:38 <McCool> topic: PR #1639
14:38:06 <kaz> i/1639/kaz: just to make sure, does this PR include the change for OAuth reference?
14:38:25 <kaz> i/1639/dp: that part was handled by another PR by McCool./
14:38:36 <kaz> i/just to ma/scribenick: kaz/
14:38:57 <dape> q+
14:39:16 <McCool> mm: this is to address some TAG feedback
14:39:45 <kaz> i/this is to/scribenick: McCool/
14:39:50 <dape> ack dape
14:40:23 <McCool> dape: seems to be a problem with "any type" in the rendered version
14:40:37 <McCool> mm: but if only in the rendered version will be fixed when we re-render
14:40:43 <kaz> i|this is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1639 PR 1639 - Adjust policy-like security assertions|
14:41:08 <McCool> seb: this is a SHACL issue; render script issue
14:44:23 <cris> q+
14:44:30 <McCool> mm: so three assertions removed, one merged with another
14:45:26 <kaz> q+
14:46:04 <kaz> ack c
14:47:37 <cris> subtopic: PR 1642
14:47:52 <cris> seb: this PR should solve the render problem
14:48:04 <cris> ... it was cause by an issue with the SHACL definition
14:48:20 <kaz> i/1642/(trouble with being merged due to recent rechartering, so McCool creates another PR.)/
14:48:26 <kaz> ack k
14:48:38 <cris> ... an old PR used node kind
14:48:45 <cris> ... which is more powerful
14:49:01 <cris> ... the PR re-introduce the dataType
14:49:09 <kaz> i|this PR should|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1642 PR 1642 - SHACLE Type fixes|
14:49:25 <cris> ... it should fix the problem at least
14:49:40 <cris> ... my proposal is to merge this
14:49:47 <cris> q+
14:50:11 <cris> ... and then fix it later
14:51:05 <kaz> present+ Farshid_Tavakolizadeh
14:51:10 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:51:39 <cris> cris: I would go ahead with the PR
14:51:48 <cris> ... but we should discuss more about the fixes
14:51:54 <cris> seb: I agree
14:52:36 <kaz> q+
14:52:39 <kaz> ack c
14:53:12 <cris> kaz: have you talked with ethieblin ?
14:53:29 <cris> seb: he is avaible right now
14:53:44 <cris> kaz: what about jsonld guys
14:54:14 <cris> seb: it is a complex issue
14:54:43 <cris> cris: I can volunteer digging deeper on the issue
14:54:47 <cris> seb: thank you
14:55:22 <cris> mc: previous PR issue should be resolved now
14:55:24 <McCool> topic: Pr #1639
14:55:31 <McCool> mm: removed index.html
14:55:45 <kaz> s/what about jsonld guys/why don't we ask the JSON-LD guys for help?/
14:55:47 <McCool> seb: ok, let's merge
14:56:10 <kaz> s/he is avaible right now/she is not available now/
14:56:29 <kaz> e/ethieblin/Elodie/
14:56:34 <McCool> topic: PR #1645
14:57:20 <McCool> cris: issue was needed to set proper container in context, then rendering will work correctly
14:58:05 <McCool> ... also manually removed changes due to the other problem we just discussed
14:58:11 <kaz> s/Pr #/PR #/
14:58:14 <McCool> ... in index.html
14:59:03 <kaz> i|removed|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1639 PR 1639 - Adjust policy-like security assertions|
14:59:32 <McCool> seb: (looks at rendering, checks) - looks correct, suggest we merge
14:59:38 <kaz> i|issue was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1645 PR 1645 - fix type of additionalResponses and ComboSec oneOf and allOf|
15:00:09 <McCool> ... any objections to merge?  hearing none - merges
15:00:19 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:00:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:00:40 <McCool> topic: PR #1594
15:00:54 <McCool> seb: some context, TM has "required" feature
15:01:03 <McCool> ... taken from JSON Schema paradigm
15:01:08 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
15:01:37 <kaz> i/ML as to leave/scribenick: McCool/
15:01:37 <McCool> ... which says there are some key-value pairs that should always be in target
15:01:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:01:46 <FarshidT> FarshidT has joined #wot-td
15:02:01 <McCool> ... but from experience from implementations, it turns out to be annoying
15:02:14 <kaz> i/ML has to leave/scribenick: McCool/
15:02:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:02:33 <McCool> ... expectation is typically that everything is required, since that is generally the point of TMs
15:03:04 <McCool> ... but there might be some exceptions where there is a non-mandatory feature
15:03:32 <McCool> ... so more useful to go the other way around, and use "tm:optional" rather than "tm:required"
15:03:35 <kaz> s/kaz_A/Kaz_A/
15:03:43 <McCool> ... there was all the question whether we need it at all
15:04:11 <McCool> ... so we could also solve this another way
15:04:24 <McCool> ... e.g. by referring to variant thing models
15:04:34 <McCool> ... but this could get complicated
15:04:45 <FarshidT> Sorry guys, I have to drop and join another call. I've commented on the issue on the discovery side: https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/384
15:05:24 <McCool> seb: at any rate, this PR introduces tm:optional in place of tm:required
15:05:39 <kaz> s/PR #1594/Issue #1594/
15:05:58 <kaz> i|some context,|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1594 Issue 1594 - Using tm:required for non-affordance members|
15:06:52 <McCool> seb: note also this would cause this assertion to be at risk, since we don't have implementations yet.
15:07:06 <McCool> ... but should not be difficult
15:08:00 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1640 related PR 1640 - init tm:optional
15:08:04 <mjk_> mjk_ has joined #wot-td
15:08:13 <McCool> mm: I am ok with it as a stand-alone concept, the only issue is deviation from JSON Schema
15:08:18 <mjk_> q?
15:08:33 <McCool> seb: true, but this is about interactions, not about data schema
15:08:54 <McCool> ... is more like object-oriented modelling/programming instead of data schema modelling
15:09:20 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1640.html#thing-model-td-required preview - 9.3.4 tm:optional
15:09:31 <McCool> mm: is there any clean way to have both?
15:09:46 <McCool> seb: we were thinking about that, but there were argument against it
15:09:56 <McCool> cris: basically makes everything more complex.
15:11:00 <mjk_> q?
15:11:04 <mjk_> q+
15:11:50 <McCool> mm: was going to suggest making required the default, but then if it appears making other things optional by implication
15:12:03 <McCool> kaz: I think we need big reasons for changes at this stage
15:12:45 <cris> q+
15:13:05 <McCool> seb: it is however quite annoying, you have to list all the affordances all the time
15:13:51 <McCool> kaz: technically I can understand, but need to explain intention of this big change
15:14:10 <McCool> seb: yes, needs to be justified in change log clearly
15:14:24 <McCool> kaz: just saying it is annoying is not enough
15:14:24 <kaz> ack k
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15:14:46 <McCool> mjk: my experience is not clear how these would be processed in TD
15:15:11 <McCool> ... really don't process optionality when you are defining something
15:15:33 <McCool> ... in oneDM and Matter, have found need to describe features that are have more than one "node"
15:15:48 <McCool> ... things that always go together, "feature sets"
15:15:50 <kaz> ack mjk
15:16:05 <McCool> ... for example "cancellable actions", or "logging"
15:16:15 <McCool> ... each have extra properties and events
15:16:39 <McCool> ... don't have design to propose
15:16:51 <McCool> mm: does SDF use required or optional?
15:17:10 <McCool> mjk: required, but have base functionality
15:17:30 <McCool> ... but we are looking at some improvements in composibility
15:17:58 <McCool> ... lower-level syntax do use JSON Schema, properties needed in an object
15:18:24 <McCool> ... TM is for composing, TD is after you have selected optionality
15:18:39 <McCool> ... is tm:required JSON pointer?
15:18:45 <McCool> seb: yes
15:19:03 <McCool> mjk: ok, so that is not exactly aligned with JSON Schema
15:19:12 <McCool> ... it won't *break* JSON Schema
15:19:31 <McCool> seb: that's right; even use "tm:" prefix to distinguish
15:20:10 <McCool> mjk: so a difference in polarity
15:20:34 <McCool> seb: you said TM is just defining opportunties for what TD should look like
15:20:40 <McCool> ... but it's also a template
15:21:06 <McCool> ... as a manufacturer, you are defining what is provided by the device
15:21:37 <McCool> ... so the assumption is that if you are spending time in TM modelling, is because you expect them to be in the TD
15:22:19 <McCool> q?
15:22:28 <kaz> ack c
15:22:35 <McCool> cris: original use case for TM
15:22:50 <McCool> ... differ from JSON Schema, in that we have use case in mind
15:23:12 <McCool> ... not validation, is description
15:23:45 <McCool> ... are answering question whether we can produce a TD, not whether it is valid
15:24:20 <McCool> mjk: in SDF found it is useful to express both optionality and mandatoriness
15:24:27 <McCool> q?
15:24:45 <McCool> seb: just the question of which is more practical
15:25:06 <McCool> ... and our experience is that "optional" would be more practical
15:25:07 <McCool> q+
15:25:31 <McCool> seb: assumption is that things in TM will generally be in a TD
15:26:05 <McCool> mjk: only exception I have seen is if you have a big enum, but don't see that as a gating item
15:26:27 <McCool> ... in generative case we more want to say what the core items are, then the options
15:27:21 <kaz> q+
15:27:23 <kaz> ack m
15:27:54 <McCool> mm: to summarize, two downsides are JSON schema and lateness
15:28:24 <McCool> ... discussion seems to be that the JSON Schema issue is not as important as the modelling ease of use
15:29:11 <McCool> ... also the people proposing this are mostly people who have already provided examples
15:29:37 <McCool> ... we would also need to update the discovery spec, which uses tm:required currently
15:30:12 <McCool> ... on the other hand, fixing the directory TMs alone would satisfy the test requirements...
15:30:58 <kaz> kaz: would agree given it would be useful and productive for implementers if we provide this change, but we still need to explain the need and expected usefulness within the spec./
15:31:03 <kaz> i/would/scribenick: kaz/
15:31:12 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
15:31:19 <kaz> ack k
15:31:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:31:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:31:37 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/388
15:32:12 <McCool> seb: ok, then will merge - merged
15:32:14 <McCool> q?
15:32:23 <kaz> q?
15:33:11 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/384
15:33:33 <kaz> kaz: note that Farshid also created Issue 384 around this topic
15:33:42 <kaz> i/note/scribenick: kaz/
15:33:49 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
15:35:09 <McCool> (back, wrong number... again)
15:35:33 <McCool> topic: publicatino
15:35:47 <McCool> seb: kaz cleaned up and published the WD, not available
15:35:47 <kaz> s/publicatino/Publication/
15:36:02 <kaz> s/(back, wrong number... again)//
15:36:12 <McCool> ... this the basis of the version used for CR, but there are some pending changes
15:38:20 <McCool> ... thing it is fairly stable and much improved
15:38:35 <McCool> mm: think we should aim for a resolution at TPAC for CR transition
15:38:59 <McCool> ... still need some work, then call for a resolution, have a two-week internal review, etc.
15:39:36 <kaz> s/this the/this is the/
15:39:44 <McCool> seb: should at least try to address Oracle's feedback
15:39:53 <kaz> s/, not available/
15:40:05 <McCool> mm: we can try to address at least the security things on Monday and generate PRs for thoes
15:40:25 <kaz> i|kaz cleaned up|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-wot-thing-description11-20220803/ TD WD4|
15:40:56 <McCool> ... in general, these are all editorial changes, even if they technically might create some new assertions
15:41:06 <McCool> seb: think we need at least one more week
15:41:19 <McCool> ... resolve these, then start review phase
15:41:49 <kaz> q+
15:42:18 <McCool> kaz: seb, will you be available next Wed?
15:42:21 <kaz> ack k
15:42:40 <McCool> seb: am on a workshop, will try to escape for a few minutes
15:43:33 <McCool> mm: so we should have someone else chair, you can join in the last 15m to have resolution
15:47:31 <McCool> mm: also need to explicitly list atrisk items and sections, can do that after we lock down the CR candidate
15:47:52 <McCool> seb: in other news, IANA request is still under discussion
15:48:13 <McCool> topic: minutes
15:50:07 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/07/20-wot-td-minutes.html July-20
15:51:02 <McCool> seb: any objections to publish?
15:51:11 <McCool> ... hearing none, let's publish
15:52:01 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:52:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:52:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/03-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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