11:55:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-supported
11:55:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/02-wcag3-supported-irc
11:55:38 <Makoto> zakim, start meeting
11:55:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:55:39 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Makoto
11:56:07 <Makoto> meeting: Accessibility Supported Subgroup Meeting - Week 3
11:56:18 <Makoto> rrsagent, make logs world
11:56:43 <Makoto> Agenda+ Finalize Our Goal and Work Plan towards TPAC
11:57:06 <Makoto> Agenda+ Review comments on  "Accessibility supported in WCAG 2"
11:57:20 <Rachael> present+
11:57:59 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-supported
11:58:31 <Makoto> present+
11:58:38 <bruce_bailey> present+
12:00:09 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_bailey
12:00:46 <LauraBMiller_> LauraBMiller_ has joined #wcag3-supported
12:01:02 <LauraBMiller_> present+
12:05:19 <Makoto> Subgroup wiki https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Accessibility-supported-Subgroup
12:06:11 <bruce_bailey> Wiki page has link to working draft (Google Docs)
12:06:34 <bruce_bailey> Wiki page has links to previous minutes
12:07:46 <bruce_bailey> Laura Miller from Vispero introduces herself.
12:08:12 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  last week just AWK and Makoto
12:09:05 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:09:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Finalize Our Goal and Work Plan towards TPAC -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:10:20 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M
12:10:32 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  As a reminder, "Accessibility Supported" was not in WCAG 1.0 and is a new concept with WCAG 2.0
12:11:13 <bruce_bailey> ... at our first meeting it was proposed that we might consider dropping the concept for WCAG 3...
12:12:03 <bruce_bailey> ... at last weeks meeting, AWK and Makoto drafted an outline for addressing the question.
12:12:28 <Rachael> q+ to suggest the additional goal of outlining next steps
12:13:08 <bruce_bailey> ... for starters,  I'd like to suggest that our goal would be to present pros and cons on
12:13:18 <bruce_bailey> 1) Keep "Accessibility Supported"  2) Get rid of "Accessibility Supported" for WCAG 3.
12:14:11 <bruce_bailey> Makoto: another work item is adding use case to working document
12:14:24 <bruce_bailey> #1 Makoto - Japan (How other language than English has been addressing the concept of "Accessibility Supported".)  #2 Andrew - Adobe (How a technology vendor  has been addressing the concept of "Accessibility Supported".)    #3 Bruce - Section 508 (How a government (Access Board) has been addressing the concept of "Accessibility Supported".)
12:15:55 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  I volunteered to describe our companies experience with challenge of multiple browsers and multiple assistive technologies...
12:16:29 <bruce_bailey> ... accessibility statement might reflect what browers we used.
12:17:31 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  We looked at WebAIM survey to check that we were testing with screen readers most in use...
12:18:00 <bruce_bailey> ... trying to document in our accessibility statement what we did, how we tested
12:18:48 <bruce_bailey> Example from Holland America
12:20:10 <bruce_bailey> Makoto shares example from powermaper.com/tests/screenreaders/
12:21:06 <bruce_bailey> https://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/
12:21:28 <bruce_bailey> Discussion if organizations are using these sort of tools.
12:22:03 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  HA uses WebAIM report, but covered products is similar.
12:22:56 <bruce_bailey> q+ to volunteer that varied combination seems not popular with U.S. Feds
12:24:02 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Likes goals.  Please also write up other sub goals.
12:24:16 <Poornima_> Poornima_ has joined #wcag3-supported
12:24:26 <Makoto> q?
12:24:32 <Poornima_> present+
12:24:34 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  sub group could be convined after TPAC to work on step 2
12:24:35 <Makoto> ack bruce
12:24:35 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to volunteer that varied combination seems not popular with U.S. Feds
12:24:43 <Makoto> ack rachael
12:24:43 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to suggest the additional goal of outlining next steps
12:26:27 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  in federal sphere, testing with AT more of a last resort
12:28:32 <bruce_bailey> ... general best practice is using protocol like Trusted Tester and ANDI (from SSA)
12:29:05 <bruce_bailey> ... testing with screen reading software or AT is last (or latter) resort
12:29:36 <bruce_bailey> ... for employee, JAWS is the most popular, but NVDA sometimes used for testing.
12:29:37 <Rachael> +1
12:29:45 <Poornima_> +1
12:29:50 <LauraBMiller_> +1
12:29:54 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  folks okay with work plan as discussed?
12:30:49 <LauraBMiller_> q+
12:30:50 <Makoto> ack Mak
12:30:58 <Makoto> ack Laura
12:31:34 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  Can we add to work plan if we like sources?
12:32:37 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We are open to other sources.  PowerMapper new to me as well.
12:32:39 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:33:32 <Makoto> ack bruce
12:34:43 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  i think we are just informally sampling resources, not deep dive into compatible testing as a group
12:35:32 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Returning to Use Cases in working document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.y22sywdlyi60
12:36:51 <bruce_bailey> ... Japan experience was a public body and in the doc I includes some of that experience...
12:37:21 <bruce_bailey> ... please use Japan use case as a model.  I would like to assign everyone a use case
12:38:14 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  I have started adding 508 Refresh as Use Case, seems to be going well
12:38:37 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  I will add HA experience as use case.
12:39:32 <bruce_bailey> Laura volunteers to read and will plan to suggest a Use Case topic for next week
12:40:01 <bruce_bailey> Mokoto:  For next week, we will review state of use cases.
12:40:34 <bruce_bailey> ... please be ready to discuss next week, no need to finish
12:40:50 <Makoto> q?
12:41:43 <bruce_bailey> Mokoto:  In working document, there are some comments which I would like to discuss...
12:42:08 <Makoto> zakim, take up next item
12:42:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review comments on  "Accessibility supported in WCAG 2" -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:42:35 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_caRiZaTQDmsd2Vq415sz4AIullNse-GeGtohUfg_5M/
12:44:44 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:44:54 <LauraBMiller_> q+
12:44:56 <Makoto> ack bruce
12:45:20 <Makoto> ack Laura
12:46:00 <Rachael> q+
12:46:03 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  I am just seeing Jon Avila comment for the first time -- it is a good observation -- but I need to think about it.
12:47:06 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Can we put some numerical parameters around accessibility supported, like 50-60%?
12:47:23 <Poornima_> q+
12:48:21 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  If we are talking about an overlay approach, can the assessment be made without AT?
12:49:05 <bruce_bailey> ... If you do not have accessibility support -- and there is a problem -- how can you know if AT is working or problem is elsewhere?
12:49:28 <Makoto> ack rachael
12:49:36 <Rachael> JAWS has a setting that is on by default that takes an enter key and translates it to a mouse click. This helps fix a lot of issues on the web but breaks some pages that detect the enter key specifically. There is a way to pass the enter key through that works. The site works with the keyboard but does not work with the keyboard when JAWs is turned on. So when something is keyed to the enter key does it pass or fail?
12:49:56 <bruce_bailey> ... Seems like small errors could block accessibility at large
12:51:23 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  So page passes, by turning JAWS off, but now page does not read!
12:52:11 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  My question is doe the page looking for the Enter key fail accessibility supported?
12:52:42 <bruce_bailey> Laura:  So if an auditor allows for that, seems like just multiplying exceptions and possible problems.
12:52:54 <Makoto> ack poornima
12:53:02 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:53:55 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  I also want more time to digest Jon Avila's comment...
12:54:43 <bruce_bailey> ... but take labeling example, from the markup there are multiple ways to address SC requirement  -- ARIA being just one ...
12:55:32 <bruce_bailey> ... but some ways might not work well with a variety of AT but just because one AT does not work it is not fair to fail SC...
12:56:13 <bruce_bailey> ... but other case is code that seems to address SC but does not work in practice -- so that should not pass SC either...
12:56:28 <bruce_bailey> ... but we know how to code correctly most of the time
12:58:03 <bruce_bailey> Mokoto:  In Japan we have similar example, PC Talker with 85% marker, but it does not support WAI-ARIA so those techniques are not useful in Japanese...
12:58:48 <bruce_bailey> ... whereas English version of page works fine, but that is not enough and highlights problem with accessibility support
12:59:07 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Please review and add to working document
12:59:18 <bruce_bailey> ack me
13:01:29 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #wcag3-supported
13:03:25 <bruce_bailey> RSSagent, make minutes
13:03:39 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/02-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto
13:04:38 <bruce_bailey> zakim, end meeting
13:04:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rachael, Makoto, bruce_bailey, LauraBMiller_, Poornima_
13:04:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:04:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/02-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Zakim
13:04:43 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bruce_bailey; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:04:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-supported
13:14:04 <Makoto> rrsagent, please part
13:14:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items