IRC log of web-networks on 2022-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-irc
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12:55:07 [dom]
Meeting: Web & Networks Interest Group
12:55:59 [dom]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-networks-ig/2022Jun/0001.html
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Present+ Sudeep, ChrisN, DanD, Dapeng, LarryZhao, Louay, MichaelMcCool, Song
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present+ Louay_Bassbouss
13:04:58 [dom]
Sudeep: our focus will be on edge computing today given the current momentum behind this topic
13:05:42 [dom]
... our goal is to identify next steps, in particular towards TPAC
13:06:14 [dom]
... we'll also talk about the upcoming TPAC 2022
13:06:23 [dom]
... and a summary of our existing & new topics in the IG
13:06:35 [dom]
Topic: Edge Computing Workstream
13:06:56 [dom]
-> https://github.com/w3c/edge-computing-web-exploration/ Edge Computing Exploration github repo
13:07:10 [dom]
-> https://w3c.github.io/edge-computing-web-exploration/ Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and Requirements
13:07:39 [dom]
Max: I've updated the document based on the comments from the last meeting
13:07:45 [dom]
... I'll review these updates
13:07:57 [dom]
... and Michael sent a PR earlier today that we can also discuss
13:08:32 [dom]
... We've identified editors (separately from contributors)
13:08:46 [dom]
... the co-editors are Michael, Song and myself
13:09:15 [dom]
... There was also a request to highlight the benefits of offloading to the cloud or edge in the use cases
13:10:40 [dom]
... which we've done through use cases - e.g. in the Machine Learning use cases involve really intensive computing which depending on the underlying hardware may imply very different outcomes
13:10:46 [dom]
... e.g. whether they have a GPU or not
13:12:42 [dom]
Michael: maybe a section summarizing the benefits would be useful
13:12:45 [dom]
Max: +1
13:13:47 [dom]
Max: another comment was a suggestion to refine the gap analysis
13:14:08 [dom]
... it now emphasizes what the current specs cannot support
13:14:50 [dom]
Max: I think the bullet points in section 5.2 may deserve to be a section standing on its own
13:14:55 [dom]
s/Max/Michael/
13:15:01 [dom]
Max: let's iterate on this indeed
13:15:17 [McCool]
q+
13:15:24 [dom]
Max: another update is about the the conclusion & way forward section (8.3)
13:16:11 [dom]
... we list 2 options: divide the work across existing relevant Working Groups,
13:16:23 [dom]
... or we establish a dedicated Working Group for this problem
13:17:34 [dom]
... the 2nd option helps with a unified architecture - we can coordinate with other groups as needed
13:17:37 [Karen]
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13:17:53 [dom]
... if we agree this is the right approach, we could proceed with writing a charter
13:17:56 [cpn]
q+
13:17:56 [McCool]
q?
13:17:58 [dom]
q+
13:18:26 [dom]
Michael: I think we need to list the potential deliverables
13:18:37 [dom]
... this would help establish which may need a new Working Group
13:19:02 [dom]
... it's quite likely this would be needed, but there will also be a need to coordinate with other groups
13:19:53 [dom]
Sudeep: we also need to identify the stakeholders who would need to support the work & a potential charter
13:21:36 [dom]
ack McCool
13:21:37 [dom]
ack cpn
13:21:40 [McCool]
(since I interrupted so much, I will be quiet for a while ;)
13:22:31 [dom]
cpn: I think we still need to improve the understanding of requirements before proposing a WG
13:22:36 [dom]
... the exploratory work may not be a good fit for a WG
13:23:06 [McCool]
q+
13:23:49 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
13:24:10 [cpn]
Dom: Agree, CGs are more a place for the exploration
13:24:46 [cpn]
... Overall I think mapping proposed solutions to new specs or changes to existing specs, protocols, APIs, there's room for pre-standardisation work
13:24:56 [dom]
ack me
13:25:16 [dom]
max: I agree with your points - this needs further work before proposing a WG
13:25:24 [dom]
... a CG sounds like an interesting option
13:26:28 [dom]
Song: +1 on iterating in the IG or in a CG to draw a clearer picture of what we need to build
13:28:21 [dom]
... having a single group would help making progress rather than split across groups
13:28:21 [dom]
q+
13:29:17 [dom]
Michael: +1 on more incubation; I think the document itself also needs more iteration
13:29:31 [dom]
... getting more and broader input on it would be good
13:29:44 [dom]
... a W3C workshop might be a good way to achieve this
13:30:29 [dom]
... a CG would be one way to do so but it has downsides, but an IG is already a good fit
13:31:00 [cpn]
Dom: I agree having a single group would be more comfortable
13:31:22 [cpn]
... When we get to the right stage for standardisation, I expect we'd need to split it across multiple groups
13:31:30 [cpn]
... e.g., WASM work going to that WG
13:32:13 [cpn]
... We should look at it as a collection of useful pieces, rather than something that must be adopted all together
13:32:23 [cpn]
... An option 1 approach may be more likely to get to where we want
13:32:32 [sudeep]
q+
13:33:02 [cpn]
... On getting broader input, the first thing to do would be to publish as an IG note, which signals the group wants input on it
13:33:19 [McCool]
q+
13:33:27 [cpn]
... When the PR is merged, are we ready to get broader attention on the document?
13:33:58 [cpn]
... For TPAC, I was thinking more of an informal workshop, could lead to a formal workshop later
13:34:29 [cpn]
... Use TPAC as a way to gather presentations on the topic, prerecorded, different perspectives, to add to our thinking
13:35:05 [dom]
ack me
13:35:06 [cpn]
... Relevant to how edge computes intersects with the web. A formal workshop probably needs a bigger sense from the community
13:35:30 [dom]
Michael: I think the document needs a bit more work before being published as an IG note - but I think we could there by the time of TPAC
13:36:05 [cpn]
q?
13:36:18 [cpn]
q+ piers
13:36:32 [dom]
q+ to react on breakout session proposal
13:36:34 [dom]
ack McCool
13:37:53 [dom]
sudeep: +1 on gathering input from beyond the group
13:38:02 [dom]
... a mini-workshop or a breakout session at TPAC might help with that
13:38:16 [dom]
... this sounds like pre-requisites before a WG
13:39:07 [dom]
max: I can look into creating a CG if there is support
13:39:35 [dom]
sudeep: there will be demos from Max, Louay around edge (not necessarily edge offload)
13:39:42 [McCool]
q+
13:39:54 [dom]
ack sudeep
13:40:12 [dom]
... maybe we should look at organizing a formal workshop before the end of our charter
13:40:22 [dom]
... and use TPAC, this document as drivers toward that
13:41:04 [dom]
Piers: any input from existing companies that provide edge services such as cloudflare, fastly
13:41:17 [dom]
... (beyond Alibaba that presumably has some as well)
13:41:56 [dom]
Max: Alibaba has an edge service, but not an implementation of the proposed solution which would need more standardization support
13:42:07 [dom]
ack piers
13:43:10 [cpn]
Dom: I hope we could attract those companies to a workshop
13:43:37 [cpn]
... I agree they're critical to making this successful, we need at least two
13:44:06 [dom]
Michael: +1 - we need to plan on how to attract these companies which have solutions pretty similar to what is being discussed
13:44:51 [dom]
... we should make sure the stakeholders listed in the business categories need to be well-represented
13:45:13 [dom]
Louay: our demo is focused on edge in the context of 5G
13:45:48 [dom]
... we showed it at the Media Web Symposium - I plan to record it as a demo
13:46:55 [cpn]
Dom: Breakouts are more limited this year, 1 hour for broad visiblilty, but probably not 2 hours
13:47:32 [cpn]
... Could have a longer timeslot for the TPAC meeting, that could be used for demos, or discussion
13:47:55 [cpn]
... The number of people would be more limited, but would give more leeway for scheduling
13:48:07 [dom]
Topic: TPAC planning
13:50:52 [dom]
Sudeep: WNIG meeting on Sep 13, then breakouts on Sep 14
13:51:07 [dom]
Michael: afternoon slots won't work well for remote participation to breakouts
13:51:18 [dom]
Sudeep: maybe that points toward doing the mini-workshop post TPAC
13:53:33 [cpn]
Dom: The last breakout slot at 4:30 could be possible for people in Asia?
13:55:29 [dom]
Sudeep: our agenda at TPAC will be structure around updates to our workstreams, with plenty of time for open discussion (with room for a possible guest speaker)
13:55:50 [dom]
... it'll be posted on the wiki
13:57:17 [dom]
Topic: Updates on other topics
13:57:54 [dom]
Piers: the work on monitoring in IETF is on hold, but there is work happening in CTA WAVE around this
13:58:29 [dom]
Chris: I'm talking with that group in the context of the Media & Entertainment IG - let's approach them together
13:59:56 [McCool]
(sorry, I have to go, another call with SDW...)
14:00:01 [dom]
Sudeep: not much progress on link performance prediction; haven't seen much progress on priority control either
14:00:50 [dom]
... on Edge Computing, good progress on our offloading; not seeing lots of progress in intersection between MEC & Web
14:01:00 [dom]
... Not much anew on network emulation either
14:01:34 [dom]
... New topics have emerged recently: exposing network slicing (which are now exposed e.g. in Android)
14:02:18 [dom]
... We also received feedback from the Games CG on the network APIs gap e.g. for download progress information
14:04:41 [dom]
Dom: the Winter CG is looking at making browser APIs into non-browser runtimes such as node, deno, cloudflare worker
14:04:50 [dom]
... possibly interesting overlap with our offloading explorations
14:05:12 [dom]
Sudeep: also potential interest around multicast receiver for Web using edge nodes
14:05:20 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-minutes.html dom
14:05:24 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:05:52 [dom]
Present+ Huaqi
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-minutes.html dom
14:05:59 [dom]
Present+ PeipeiGuo
14:06:00 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:06:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-minutes.html dom
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Chair: Sudeep, Song, DanD
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i/<dom> Sudeep: our focus/Scribe+ dom
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:06:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-minutes.html dom
14:07:35 [dom]
i/Meeting:/Scribe+ dom
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:07:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-web-networks-minutes.html dom
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