11:13:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-supported
11:13:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/19-wcag3-supported-irc
11:13:55 <Makoto> Agenda+ Introduction
11:14:18 <Makoto> Agenda+ Subgroup Handbook
11:14:43 <Makoto> Agenda+ About "Accessibility supported"
11:15:02 <Makoto> Agenda+ Discussion on our goal
11:16:01 <Makoto> meeting: Accessibility Supported Subgroup Week 1
11:16:17 <Makoto> chair: Makoto
11:57:36 <Makoto> zakim, start meeting
11:57:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:57:37 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Makoto
11:58:01 <Makoto> meeting: Accessibility Supported Subgroup Week 1
11:58:21 <Makoto> rrsagent, make logs world
12:01:17 <poornima> poornima has joined #wcag3-supported
12:01:26 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-supported
12:01:30 <poornima> present+
12:02:27 <bruce_bailey> present+
12:02:42 <Makoto> present+
12:02:57 <Rachael> Rachael has joined #wcag3-supported
12:05:30 <Rachael> zakim, make minutes
12:05:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Rachael
12:05:40 <Rachael> rrsagent, make minutes
12:05:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/19-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Rachael
12:06:16 <Rachael> rrsagent, make logs world
12:07:14 <AWK> AWK has joined #wcag3-supported
12:08:01 <bruce_bailey> Makoto's starting draft:
12:08:02 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_caRiZaTQDmsd2Vq415sz4AIullNse-GeGtohUfg_5M
12:08:55 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 1
12:08:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introduction -- taken up [from Makoto]
12:09:46 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_bailey
12:10:21 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  welcome, joined AGWG in 2005 and also lead JIS committee work...
12:10:55 <bruce_bailey> ... I wanted to share experience with accessibility supported, and would like others to introduce themselves
12:11:39 <bruce_bailey> AWK:  Andrew Kirkpatrick, representing Adobe on AGWG, including co-chair for seven years working on 2.1, based in boston
12:12:01 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  Working with Holland American Group, three cruise lines...
12:12:48 <bruce_bailey> ... before joining AGWG, worked in banking and team which focussed on accessiblity.  Ten years in space, also includes engineering...
12:13:21 <bruce_bailey> ... I have been mostly background work, but am interested with being more active.  This sub group and protocols.
12:14:42 <bruce_bailey> Bruce Bailey:  U.S. Access Board, section 508 refresh, IE since ~ 2003.
12:15:41 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Screen shares Accessibility Supported Subgroup pages on GitHub
12:16:46 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  One main issues is how comprehensive, language and OS/browser support
12:17:12 <bruce_bailey> ... goal today is to figure out goals and plan for next 8 weeks
12:17:49 <bruce_bailey> ... subgroup handbook outlines work plan
12:18:10 <bruce_bailey> ... week 8 should be report back to AGWG
12:19:08 <bruce_bailey> ... todays agenda is to finalize goals for eight week period
12:19:27 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_caRiZaTQDmsd2Vq415sz4AIullNse-GeGtohUfg_5M/edit
12:19:38 <Makoto> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/
12:20:18 <bruce_bailey> 1st link is hand book
12:20:30 <bruce_bailey> 2nd link is working document
12:21:45 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  doc starts with reference excerpts from 2.1, definitions and conformance requirement
12:22:19 <bruce_bailey> ... in my experience, concept is miss understood
12:22:50 <bruce_bailey> ... taken to means "can I use HTML or not?"  -- Can I use PDF or not?
12:22:55 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:23:32 <bruce_bailey> ack me
12:24:13 <bruce_bailey> Bruce asks for clarification about how broadly "accessibility supported" is taken in Japan.
12:25:09 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  In Japan, we tend to make PDF out of scope -- because it is so labor intensive to make accessible.
12:25:40 <bruce_bailey> ... People think "PDF is not perfect, so we cannot use PDF (at all)"  -- but that is not correct.
12:26:05 <bruce_bailey> ... For example, simple PDF documents can be very easy to make accessible.
12:27:05 <bruce_bailey> ... So some PDF can meet JIS requirements.
12:27:56 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Accessibility Supported concept in 2.0 was very important, since 1.0 required W3C technologies...
12:29:08 <bruce_bailey> ... when 2.0 was under development, there were conversations about "baseline technologies" which considered listing products -- but AGWG settled on Accessiblity Supported instead.
12:29:42 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Concept was good, and technology neutral, but did not end up working well for Japan.
12:30:09 <bruce_bailey> In 2nd doc, see "3. Use case # Japan"
12:30:46 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XxzwsgWZSDh2EDqTag-nYfrqAT3b6Glpu8DGbVpTd9M/edit#heading=h.y22sywdlyi60
12:31:23 <bruce_bailey> WCAG 2.0 Level AA is highly recommended, but not legally required.
12:32:06 <bruce_bailey> ... Bruce asked in document if there is movement for requiring in public sector.
12:32:34 <bruce_bailey> ... There are legislative discussions, but no formal requirement.
12:32:53 <bruce_bailey> ... Japan needs international (ISO) adoption for consideration.
12:33:19 <bruce_bailey> ... there are conversations about moving to 2.2 Level AA, but that will have to wait on ISO adoption.
12:34:11 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  The screen reader market share in Japan is dominated by PC Talker...
12:34:31 <bruce_bailey> ... some developers are testing with NVDA
12:35:15 <bruce_bailey> ... ARIA support for PC Talker is lacking, and PC Talker tends to lag behind JAWS and even NVDA in terms of features.
12:36:15 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Example of lack features is 2.4.4 Link Purpose because documented sufficient techniques do not work with PC Talker.
12:36:57 <bruce_bailey> ... What we have done is include list of test cases in Japan standard.
12:37:28 <bruce_bailey> ... WAIC, pronounced "wake", includes those many references.
12:38:25 <bruce_bailey> Reference source is:  https://waic.jp/
12:39:25 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We created test code samples and testing proceedures.
12:40:21 <bruce_bailey> ... we have supported, partially supported, not supported
12:40:50 <bruce_bailey> ... this is H69
12:41:14 <Makoto> Accessibility Supported Informatin by WAIC https://waic.jp/docs/as/info/201406/index.html
12:42:10 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  This is just one example.  As you know, there are so very many techniques and failures already documented...
12:42:47 <bruce_bailey> ... for Japan, we worked to review all of these against various browsers and screen reading software
12:42:58 <bruce_bailey> ... many combination.
12:43:16 <bruce_bailey> s/many combination./many combinations.
12:43:40 <bruce_bailey> ... It has been a huge challenge, and it did not go as well as I had expected...
12:44:03 <bruce_bailey> ... please see Google Doc for summary of some experiences.
12:45:17 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  Base on our experience in Japan, I would like to suggest that this concept of Accessibility Supported is needed, but it is very difficult.
12:46:03 <bruce_bailey> ... creating testing procedures should be developed by AGWG but I have not information about non-English efforts for similar work.
12:46:25 <bruce_bailey> Please share example if you know of similar work outside of EN.
12:46:46 <bruce_bailey> I would like to gather used cases of examples, if possible.
12:47:06 <bruce_bailey> That background should help inform our goals for this subgroup.
12:47:07 <bruce_bailey> q?
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12:47:47 <bruce_bailey> AWK:  I think one of the goals should be to come up with a recommendation if Accessibility Supported is needed or not.
12:48:19 <bruce_bailey> ... Clearly there is need for something, but what we have been doing lags behind what is available.
12:48:37 <bruce_bailey> ... So if needed, What does it need to accomplish?
12:48:45 <bruce_bailey> ... Why is it present in the document?
12:48:55 <AWK> +AWK
12:49:02 <AWK> q?
12:49:42 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  I will dive in and comment in document this week.  The goals is not just HTML but must address other technologies.
12:50:12 <bruce_bailey> ... Are we trying to develop guidelines for other technologies?
12:50:42 <bruce_bailey> ... If you take technologies like screen readers, are we requiring them to be multi-lingual?
12:51:24 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We can go in several directions.  Big question is to decide who to approach...
12:51:51 <bruce_bailey> ... with HTML there might be an ABC element -- but how to know if compatible with assistive technology ?
12:52:35 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We used to have three standards, WCAG, ATAG, UAAG -- but WCAG3 aims to combine all of that.
12:53:22 <bruce_bailey> ... most Japanese developers have difficulty with English technical requirements.  So current approach has created barriers.
12:53:44 <bruce_bailey> ... so this is what we are trying to address in these next 8 weeks.
12:54:28 <bruce_bailey> Poornima:  Simple example is hyper text links.  Does every screen reader announce the presence of a link?
12:54:55 <bruce_bailey> ... The interactions between different browsers complicates the results very much.
12:55:02 <bruce_bailey> q+
12:55:31 <AWK> q+
12:55:43 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  We can say that 2.0 was easier (than 1.0) because it was open to technologies other than HTML.
12:55:50 <Makoto> ack bruce
12:56:28 <AWK> Bruce: Likes the idea of dropping Accessiblity SUpport
12:56:31 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  I like idea in principle of dropping Accessibiltiy Support
12:56:35 <AWK> ... hard to convey to lay people
12:56:57 <bruce_bailey> .... accessibility comes down to compatiblity with AT
12:56:58 <AWK> ... accessible comes down to compatible with AT so it can't be ignored completely
12:57:25 <AWK> ...other competing thing is that devs as a rule do a poor job of AT testing
12:57:55 <AWK> ... the US trusted tester program has rules to help address this issue
12:58:37 <AWK> ... another competing factor is that the DOJ and DoED go after sites they use a performance standard rather than conformance strictly
12:58:49 <Makoto> ack AWK
12:59:32 <bruce_bailey> AWK:  Is WCAG3 open to even more technologies?  It will still be limited to web technologies.
13:00:24 <bruce_bailey> Makoto:  For next week, please review document and comments...
13:00:32 <bruce_bailey> ... Please add some use cases.
13:00:41 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, make minutes
13:00:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/19-wcag3-supported-minutes.html bruce_bailey
13:04:06 <bruce_bailey> rssagent, end meeting
13:04:33 <bruce_bailey> zakim, end meeting
13:04:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been poornima, bruce_bailey, Makoto, AWK
13:04:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:04:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/19-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Zakim
13:04:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bruce_bailey; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:04:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-supported
13:05:06 <bruce_bailey> RSSAgent, you are excused
13:21:37 <Makoto> s/2.0 was easier (than 1.0)/2.0 was easier (than WCAG 3)
13:23:04 <Makoto> s/because it was open to/because it will be open to wider range of digital content
13:23:40 <Makoto> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:23:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/19-wcag3-supported-minutes.html Makoto