15:47:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
15:47:52 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-silver-conf-irc
15:47:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:47:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
15:48:18 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
15:48:22 <janina> Chair: Janina
15:48:30 <janina> Date: 14 Jul 2022
15:49:13 <janina> regrets: Susana_Pallero
15:50:03 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
15:50:03 <janina> agenda+ Our Use Cases
15:50:03 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:50:03 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
15:50:20 <janina>  rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
16:01:58 <DarrylLehmann> DarrylLehmann has joined #silver-conf
16:02:39 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver-conf
16:02:42 <DarrylLehmann> present+
16:02:44 <Azlan> present+
16:02:46 <janina> present+
16:02:56 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver-conf
16:03:07 <maryjom> present+
16:03:22 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
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16:03:43 <jeanne> present+
16:03:50 <shadi> present+
16:03:54 <Sarah_Indano_> present+
16:04:30 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:05:31 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:05:31 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
16:05:41 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver-conf
16:05:45 <shadi> Janina: one agenda item today
16:05:49 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #silver-conf
16:05:54 <shadi> ...getting consensus on use cases
16:06:36 <ToddL> present+
16:07:06 <shadi> Janina: splitting into subgroups
16:07:19 <shadi> ...small tasks and shorter timelines
16:07:38 <shadi> ...being announced soon
16:07:50 <shadi> ...sign up as soon as you can
16:08:31 <jeanne> SubGroup Handbook -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_caRiZaTQDmsd2Vq415sz4AIullNse-GeGtohUfg_5M/
16:08:37 <jeanne> present+
16:08:38 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
16:08:38 <Wilco> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki#subgroups
16:08:40 <GreggVan> present+
16:08:58 <Wilco> present+
16:09:00 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:09:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Our Use Cases -- taken up [from janina]
16:09:28 <shadi> Janina: proposed edits from Gregg
16:09:36 <shadi> ...Jeanne and I went through these
16:09:43 <shadi> ...made some editorial changes
16:09:51 <shadi> ...have other questions for the group
16:10:00 <jeanne> Edits in Github branch -> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/use-cases-jul-22/use-cases/index.html
16:10:35 <shadi> Jeanne: went through Gregg's Word doc
16:10:43 <shadi> ...implemented all the editorial changes
16:11:04 <shadi> ...want to discuss issues before making more substantial change
16:12:15 <shadi> Topic: Approach and Structure
16:13:31 <jeanne> The working group does agree (there is consensus) that all of these are real issues that cannot just be ignored.  Some solution has to be found to address them either by a) clarifying that accessibility should still be required, more often, b) by finding some way to provide realistic outcomes for organizations or individuals experiencing them either through changes in the technical
16:13:31 <jeanne> guidelines or through policy decisions by those using the technical guidelines.
16:13:37 <janina> q+
16:13:59 <shadi> Jeanne: Gregg proposed that note, do we agree to add it to the use cases?
16:14:30 <janina> ack ja
16:14:44 <shadi> Janina: do we need point (a)?
16:14:55 <shadi> Gregg: I think we do
16:15:01 <shadi> q+
16:16:13 <janina> scribe+ janina
16:16:28 <janina> shadi: Agrees b is implicit, but see no harm in keeping it explicit
16:16:48 <jeanne> q+ to say this project is to close the exception loophole
16:16:54 <janina> q?
16:16:56 <jeanne> ack sha
16:16:59 <janina> ack sh
16:17:09 <janina> shadi: don't think it hurts to have it
16:17:17 <janina> q?
16:17:21 <janina> ack jea
16:17:21 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say this project is to close the exception loophole
16:17:38 <shadi> Jeanne: this group is the opposite of exception
16:17:52 <shadi> ...but it is a persistent misunderstanding in AGWG
16:18:06 <GreggVan> q+
16:18:09 <shadi> ...partial conformance is a gigantic loophole
16:18:19 <janina> q?
16:18:23 <DarrylLehmann> +1
16:18:25 <shadi> ...we want to close it, so not adding exceptions
16:18:26 <janina> ack gr
16:18:32 <shadi> q+
16:18:48 <shadi> Gregg: partial conformance is not an exception
16:18:58 <janina> q+
16:19:00 <shadi> ...not a loophole either
16:19:13 <shadi> ...it's an admission that it does not conform
16:19:52 <shadi> ...saying "at least do this" sounds like an exception
16:20:49 <shadi> ...in almost all cases conformance is unrealistic
16:21:00 <jeanne> q+ to talk about partial conformance and loopholes - PeaPod's undue burden
16:21:28 <janina> ack sh
16:22:11 <janina> shadi: partial conformance is an admision of non conformance -- true
16:22:29 <janina> shadi: proposal is don't stop there; there are still things we can do
16:22:56 <janina> shadi: so it becomes what can still be done
16:23:30 <janina> shadi: we should do more than just add a note
16:24:07 <GreggVan> q+
16:24:30 <shadi> Janina: if conformance means everyone doing everything
16:24:41 <shadi> ...and all-or-nothing approach
16:24:49 <shadi> ...then nobody will agree
16:25:02 <shadi> s/will agree/will conform
16:25:05 <janina> ack ja
16:25:07 <janina> ack je
16:25:07 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about partial conformance and loopholes - PeaPod's undue burden
16:25:14 <shadi> ...and that doesn't help the cause
16:25:49 <shadi> Jeanne: difference between good intentions of the Partial Conformance
16:26:07 <shadi> ...and the actual situation that some use as a loophole
16:26:20 <shadi> ...Laura Carlos provided some examples of these
16:26:33 <shadi> ...that is the loophole that we want to close
16:27:07 <janina> q?
16:27:54 <shadi> Janina: need to timebox this discussion
16:28:08 <shadi> ...understand that it is important but we need to move forward
16:28:26 <janina> ack gr
16:28:28 <shadi> ...not sure need to reflect this discussion into the use cases document
16:28:37 <jeanne> +1 to Janina
16:28:45 <janina> q?
16:29:05 <shadi> Gregg: disagree with some of the examples
16:30:24 <shadi> ...need to be more explanatory that this is not about exceptions
16:30:45 <shadi> +1 to being pro-active/vocal about not-exceptions
16:32:08 <shadi> Gregg: useful to also say what we don't have exceptions on
16:32:26 <shadi> s/exceptions/consensus
16:33:43 <maryjom> +1
16:33:44 <GreggVan> +1
16:33:47 <DarrylLehmann> +1
16:33:51 <jeanne> Propose: The working group does agree (there is consensus) that all of these are real issues that cannot just be ignored.  Some solution has to be found to address them.
16:33:51 <janina> +1
16:34:01 <Azlan> +1
16:34:15 <jeanne> Propose: The working group does agree (there is consensus) that all of these are real issues that cannot just be ignored.  Some solution has to be found to address them.
16:34:19 <jeanne> +1
16:34:21 <Wilco> +1
16:34:24 <ToddL> +1
16:35:04 <jeanne> Propose: The group does agree (there is consensus) that all of these are real issues that cannot just be ignored.  Some solution has to be found to address them.
16:35:41 <GreggVan> Propose: The group does agree (there is consensus) that all of these are real issues that cannot just be ignored.  Some solution has to be found to address them. We just aren't sure how to address them.
16:35:51 <shadi> +1
16:36:00 <jeanne> +1
16:37:37 <shadi> Topic: Example 2.1 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/use-cases-jul-22/use-cases/index.html#example-2-1
16:37:47 <janina> q?
16:39:36 <janina> q?
16:39:52 <jeanne> Gregg proposes moving Example 2.1 to 4.3
16:39:58 <maryjom> +1
16:39:58 <shadi> Gregg: think should move situation 4
16:39:59 <shadi> q+
16:40:00 <DarrylLehmann> +1
16:40:02 <Azlan> +1
16:40:04 <GreggVan> +1
16:40:40 <janina> shadi: UGC is to show other gradiants of control; not full control;
16:40:59 <janina> shadi: point was to break down third party--to think of it at different levels of control
16:42:06 <jeanne> q+ to say the YouTube example of adding more content faster than 1M captioners
16:42:07 <Wilco> +1 to Shadi
16:42:07 <janina> shadi: We could add 4.3; but I'd still like to keep 2.1 because there are entire large businesses based on UGC
16:42:45 <janina> q?
16:42:49 <janina> ack sh
16:43:00 <shadi> q+
16:43:02 <janina> ack jea
16:43:02 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say the YouTube example of adding more content faster than 1M captioners
16:43:18 <janina> q?
16:43:29 <shadi> Jeanne: need large volume example of user generated content
16:44:01 <Azlan> Same as Jeanne. I will change my +1 to now agree with Shadi
16:44:15 <shadi> Gregg: then remove "user"
16:45:07 <janina> shadi: IRC is UGC; but pretty hard to create a problem in IRC
16:46:15 <janina> shadi: more about the complexity than volume; so a different additional example
16:47:42 <janina> q?
16:47:47 <shadi> Topic: Example 5.1 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/use-cases-jul-22/use-cases/index.html#example-5-1
16:48:08 <janina> ack sh
16:48:25 <janina> shadi: not about acquiring but about selecting, and none I can find are a11y;
16:49:00 <shadi> Gregg: conflating several aspects
16:49:21 <shadi> Topic: Renaming Situations
16:49:46 <shadi> Jeanne: suggest renaming
16:49:48 <jeanne> Comparison of old titles and new proposed  titles -> https://github.com/w3c/silver/compare/use-cases-jul-22?expand=1
16:51:31 <GreggVan> Example 5.1  procuring a payment service but no accessible ones available
16:52:19 <janina> q?
16:54:23 <Azlan> Old: Situation 3: When making large volumes of content fully conform is not achievable immediately
16:54:36 <Wilco> q+
16:56:37 <jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/use-cases-jul-22/use-cases/index.html
16:57:32 <GreggVan> 1 Example 3.1 - making content conform after acquisition:
16:59:01 <shadi> Shadi: think we are changing things back from how they originally were in the initial proposal
16:59:14 <shadi> Wilco: is going to AGWG next week?
16:59:28 <shadi> Jeanne: on the agenda for next week
16:59:40 <shadi> Wilco: we need to confirm
16:59:45 <shadi> ...suggest we do
16:59:52 <shadi> +1 to move forward
17:00:17 <shadi> Wilco: suggest Jeanne to send out final message
17:00:28 <GreggVan> +1
17:00:30 <shadi> ...with the final version, if anyone has objections
17:00:31 <Wilco> +1
17:00:31 <shadi> +1
17:00:35 <GreggVan> +1
17:00:36 <Azlan> +1
17:00:36 <DarrylLehmann> +1
17:07:33 <shadi> zakim, end meeting
17:07:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DarrylLehmann, Azlan, janina, maryjom, jeanne, shadi, Sarah_Indano_, ToddL, GreggVan, Wilco
17:07:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:07:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
17:07:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shadi; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:07:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf