IRC log of editing on 2022-07-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-editing-irc
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15:03:30 [johanneswilm]
present+
15:03:37 [Travis]
present+
15:03:39 [comandeer]
present+
15:03:44 [Travis]
scribe: Travis
15:04:08 [Travis]
Meeting: W3C Editing WG Meeting, July 14, 2022
15:04:34 [Travis]
Topic: async clipboard read and race conditions
15:04:43 [GameMaker_]
present+
15:04:45 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/180
15:05:41 [Travis]
Checking to see if Anupam can join to discuss...
15:07:14 [Travis]
whsieh: the behavior is basically checking (in Windows) the sequence number
15:07:47 [Travis]
.. apple has a similar principle. If the data contents changed between binding the requested content and the read, we will throw.
15:08:25 [Travis]
johanneswilm: is this going to result in unexpected errors?
15:08:37 [Travis]
whsieh: there are lots of cases where errors can be thrown (in general).
15:08:52 [Travis]
.. So, I'm not sure this is a problem.
15:09:15 [Travis]
.. E.g., if the user decides to cancel out of a paste operation, that is also an error.
15:09:21 [Travis]
.. so perhaps this can be one of them?
15:09:29 [whsieh_]
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15:10:33 [Travis]
topic: should reading the clipboard throw DataError or empty clipboard items?
15:10:41 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/179
15:11:36 [Travis]
(reads the issue)
15:12:09 [Travis]
whsieh_: this is the situation where there IS data on the clipboard, but none of it can be consumed by the webpage...?
15:12:36 [Travis]
.. seems weird to throw a DataError in the case where there is nothing in the clipboard/pasteboard...
15:12:43 [Travis]
.. in that case, returning an empty list.
15:13:27 [Travis]
travis: I like just returning an empty list too--easy for web authors to handle with erroring out...
15:13:54 [Travis]
whsieh_: In the specific example that snianu (Anupam) gave, I'm not sure if the error is OK.
15:14:12 [Travis]
.. probably can't resolve on this at this time without further discussion with snianu?
15:14:25 [Travis]
s/snianu?/snianu.
15:15:05 [Travis]
johanneswilm: can the JS Editors differentiate between the different error conditions?
15:16:23 [Travis]
.. could the user re-request? E.g., if the user didn't grant permission?
15:18:09 [Travis]
whsieh_: recap; there are cases where a website might want to know whether they can try again, or whether they shouldn't try again.
15:18:21 [Travis]
.. empty list vs throw error could be a way to differentiate.
15:18:27 [Travis]
johanneswilm: there are two other cases...
15:18:47 [Travis]
.. one where the user didn't give access, and one where the clipboard is changed after access is granted.
15:19:03 [Travis]
whsieh_: in the first case, Safari throws "NotAllowed" (from the user denying paste).
15:19:37 [Travis]
.. in the case where it changed, we also throw an error; but the type of error may not make sense...
15:19:51 [Travis]
.. could look at changing it?
15:20:03 [Travis]
(no resolution yet)
15:20:26 [Travis]
topic: selection API
15:20:28 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/403
15:21:04 [Travis]
johanneswilm: We've invited folks who are working on this to come and present to us in a month!
15:21:37 [Travis]
.. if folks would like to follow along, please checkout the links in the issue.
15:22:17 [Travis]
topic: Locale support
15:22:20 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/17
15:22:27 [Travis]
johanneswilm: we talked about this last time.
15:22:38 [Travis]
.. I think Microsoft wanted to get more info before continuing...
15:22:52 [Travis]
.. alex; is there anything you found?
15:23:05 [Travis]
Anupam: Hi folks, just joined.
15:24:23 [Travis]
.. looks like we still need to discuss with Office. We will have to follow up before next meeting.
15:25:00 [Travis]
topic: declarative mechanism to enable overlay content?
15:25:04 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/3
15:26:40 [Travis]
snianu: mutliple issues here
15:27:53 [Travis]
.. overlayContent was set on VK (in JS) via the navigator object...
15:28:26 [Travis]
.. from TAG review, they requested an env variable for inset (for geometrychanged event), then these CSS variables can be used to understand occluded content.
15:29:07 [Travis]
.. there was some addition concern--if we have CSS env variables, then why set overlayscontent in JS?
15:29:26 [Travis]
.. perhaps there should just be some HTML declarative thing?
15:29:31 [Travis]
.. (that's the recap)
15:30:00 [Travis]
.. was a suggestion to never resize the visual viewport (on overlays content set)
15:30:17 [Travis]
.. (today on Windows we change both layout & visual viewport)
15:30:35 [Travis]
.. then the overlays content would only control the layout viewport
15:32:05 [Travis]
.. (looking up some examples to share to help explain the details)
15:33:00 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/498
15:33:53 [Travis]
snianu: I think we can discuss this async...
15:34:18 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Are you seeking input on seeing if making the suggested (or some other proposal)?
15:34:31 [Travis]
.. or are you asking for agreement on the suggested syntax?
15:34:50 [Travis]
.. not sure if Safari is planning to implemented overlayscontent, and if so, what the behavior should be?
15:35:04 [Travis]
.. should it adjust layout + visual viewport.
15:35:09 [Travis]
.. currently only chromium supports.
15:36:22 [Travis]
travis: whenson, do you have any feedback on the declarative mechanism?
15:36:54 [Travis]
whsieh_: The behavior would apply to any element that is a focusable target for the keyboard to appear?
15:37:18 [Travis]
.. should the behavior "descend" into other elements? e.g., with iframe?
15:37:29 [Travis]
snianu: currently we're excluding iframes.
15:38:19 [Travis]
whsieh_: My intuition (for like messanger) might be useful in the main chat box... but in search field is may not be as appropriate (or in some other view).
15:38:57 [Travis]
snianu: ex: on dual-screen examples, you can split screen into two. On one screen you have a search element. Current behavior: keyboard covers both screens.
15:39:21 [Travis]
.. with overlayscontent flag it doesn't affect the layout of the whole page, just the element in question.
15:39:30 [Travis]
.. that was the original scenario that inspired the flag.
15:40:00 [Travis]
.. ex: in messager, w/ VK, you might want to adjust just the textbox and not the entire layout.
15:40:25 [Travis]
whsieh_: for a meta tag, does the web engine need to respect dynamic changes?
15:40:48 [Travis]
.. for declarative mechanism they may need an attribute on an element.
15:41:01 [Travis]
.. whsieh_ the flag on the navigator... object already offers this flexibility.
15:41:19 [Travis]
.. stepping back, I'm curious what the declarative mechanism (on the meta tag) would offer?
15:41:56 [Travis]
.. if we did add a declarative, I would be more in support of an attribute (i.e., like inputmode or similar)
15:43:20 [Travis]
Travis: I don't like meta tag for cases where the state will dynanically change (meta is usually for set-and-forget states), which this doesn't seem like it's really static...?
15:44:18 [Travis]
topic: editor projects
15:45:18 [Travis]
johanneswilm: there's a gathering of editor folks.
15:45:33 [Travis]
.. would love to get participation and have discussion/feedback from folks on this call
15:45:49 [Travis]
.. looking at Megan, Wenson, Travis?
15:46:10 [Travis]
.. and sorry, my email didn't have an subject line... (check your spam box)
15:46:36 [Travis]
Megan: at CSS meeting yesterday, Highlight API L2 was brought up.
15:46:58 [Travis]
.. Highlight API is a way to specify certain limited styles.
15:47:19 [Travis]
.. L2 is about interacting with these (e.g., would fire events for clicks on these) how to handle two highlights.
15:47:30 [Travis]
.. CSS trying to figure out where this should live?
15:47:53 [Travis]
.. they wondered if maybe they could bring it up for Editing WG to take on for incubation?
15:48:23 [Travis]
Travis: is L2 considered an incubation?
15:48:56 [Travis]
johanneswilm: In the beginning, Highlight API started here, then went to CSS later...
15:49:58 [Travis]
.. would love to have someone come back to this group in the fall (after folks back from holidays), and present to the group; discuss whether this WG is a good fit to continue some of the more interactive parts.
15:51:07 [Travis]
Megan: full disclosure: I'm one of the editors on the spec.
15:51:26 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Super! Then you would be able to present.
15:51:40 [Travis]
Travis: that sounds good.
15:53:34 [Travis]
zakim, end the meeting
15:53:34 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been johanneswilm, Travis, comandeer, GameMaker_
15:53:36 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:53:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-editing-minutes.html Zakim
15:53:39 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Travis; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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rrsagent, make logs public
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