14:42:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
14:42:22 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-ag-irc
14:42:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:42:26 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:42:29 <alastairc> present: alastairc
14:42:33 <alastairc> chair: alastairc
14:43:24 <alastairc> regrets: Shawn:, JakeA, Gundula, Rain
14:44:24 <alastairc> agenda?
14:44:30 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 3 Protocols Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/protocols_exploratory/
14:44:42 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 3 Subgroup participation and handbook https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/subgroups-2022-06
14:44:52 <alastairc> agenda+ Moving the charter forward https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/charter_July_22/
14:45:49 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
14:45:59 <Chuck> agenda?
14:55:42 <laura> laura has joined #ag
14:58:17 <laura> Scribe: Laura
14:58:22 <JF> JF has joined #ag
14:58:37 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
14:58:46 <JF> Present+
14:59:02 <Rachael> present+
14:59:28 <Chuck> present+
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15:00:52 <Francis_Storr> present+
15:01:03 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #ag
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15:01:26 <Azlan> present+
15:01:34 <alastairc> scribe: laura
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15:02:14 <ShawnT> present+
15:02:16 <AWK> AWK has joined #ag
15:02:17 <Jaunita_George_> Jaunita_George_ has joined #ag
15:02:21 <laura> ac: Any new members?
15:02:23 <AWK> +AWK
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15:02:39 <sarahhorton> present+
15:02:39 <janina> present+
15:02:40 <laura> (none)
15:02:48 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #ag
15:02:52 <Makoto> present+
15:02:56 <Wilco> present+
15:02:57 <laura> ac: Any new topics for afuture meeting?
15:03:10 <laura> (none)
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15:03:25 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:03:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG 3 Protocols Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/protocols_exploratory/ -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:03:36 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #ag
15:03:39 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/protocols_exploratory/results#xq2
15:03:41 <laura> ac: WCAG 3 Protocols Survey
15:04:39 <laura> ... 3 parts.1.  Editor's Note.  2. proproasls 3. informative questions
15:04:48 <alastairc> TOPIC:  Editor's Note for protocols
15:05:06 <laura> ... have a draft one.
15:05:16 <laura> ... and various comments.
15:05:28 <GreggVan> q+
15:05:39 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:05:48 <ToddL> present+
15:06:06 <laura> gregg: should we talke about one or 2?
15:06:10 <Wilco> +1 to Gregg's point
15:06:21 <GreggVan> present+
15:06:28 <laura> ac: should apply to both. but would derer to chuck or others.
15:06:40 <JF> Q+ to note that outside of the name choice, the 2 proposals differ widely
15:06:54 <laura> chuck: not seeing a dependency.
15:06:55 <Chuck> ack JF
15:06:55 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note that outside of the name choice, the 2 proposals differ widely
15:06:55 <alastairc> ack jf
15:07:37 <laura> jf: 2 are very different. could be both. may not be a either or.
15:07:55 <GreggVan> q+
15:08:09 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:08:11 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:08:28 <laura> gregg: would help in understanding.
15:08:30 <Chuck> q+
15:08:48 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
15:08:50 <alastairc> ack Chuck
15:09:02 <alastairc> TOPIC: Preferred starting point
15:09:10 <laura> chuck: harmless. less do 2.
15:09:34 <laura> ac: question is what do we include in next editors draft.
15:10:06 <laura> ... could have both in.
15:10:36 <laura> ... looks like some combination of both.
15:11:04 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/protocols_exploratory/?login
15:11:18 <laura> ... Is it possible to add a combination of both. or should they be separate?
15:11:39 <Chuck> Protocols and Assertions Proposal:  https://bit.ly/protocols_assertions
15:11:47 <laura> ac: (reads comments)
15:11:52 <Chuck> Evaluating Procedures Proposal:  https://bit.ly/evaluating_procedures
15:11:56 <Rachael> Protocols presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1rpayaGqxZ4qguhWWhuLSPPUU6tew3ODZ/edit#slide=id.p1
15:12:02 <Chuck> Comparison Table:  https://bit.ly/compare_the_two
15:12:07 <Wilco> q+
15:12:08 <MichaelC> q+
15:12:12 <Chuck> Link to the presentation:  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1rpayaGqxZ4qguhWWhuLSPPUU6tew3ODZ/edit
15:12:12 <Jaunita_George_> q+
15:12:18 <alastairc> ack Wilco
15:12:46 <JF> Q+ to respond to Wilco
15:12:52 <GreggVan> q+
15:12:55 <laura> wilco: we haven't seen enough to have an informed desision. Would perfer sending it bac to the sub group.
15:13:05 <Wilco> q+
15:13:12 <Chuck> q+ to respond to Wilco's suggestion of the sub group crafting single proposal for AGWG review
15:13:16 <Jennie_> Jennie_ has joined #ag
15:13:24 <alastairc> ack MichaelC
15:13:26 <Wilco> q-
15:13:27 <laura> ... need text to the working draft.
15:13:37 <Jennie_> present+
15:13:44 <Regina> Regina has joined #ag
15:13:46 <Rachael> q++ to state the purpose of this particular conversation is to get group input before creating the draft
15:13:49 <laura> MC: should be possible to combine them
15:13:54 <Rachael> q-+
15:13:54 <alastairc> q?
15:14:07 <alastairc> ack Jaunita_George_
15:15:25 <laura> jg: both have good qualities. Good to incenivise procedures and poicies.
15:15:39 <alastairc> ack jf
15:15:39 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to respond to Wilco
15:16:43 <MichaelC> q+ to disagree with JF characterization of evaluating procedures
15:16:45 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:17:06 <laura> jf: sub group has discussed in depth. One is post production one is pre-production.
15:17:36 <Chuck> ack Chuck
15:17:36 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to respond to Wilco's suggestion of the sub group crafting single proposal for AGWG review
15:17:47 <Chuck> q+ to respond to Wilco, and moving to end of queue
15:18:11 <laura> gregg: both have great potential.  should have a 3rd column explaing the differences.
15:18:35 <laura> ... standards can only refer to ther standards.
15:18:53 <laura> ... dangerous if it is not defined.
15:19:01 <JF> +1 to Gregg re: Standards
15:19:01 <Jaunita_George_> q+
15:19:21 <alastairc> ack MichaelC
15:19:21 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to disagree with JF characterization of evaluating procedures
15:19:24 <laura> ... are they serving differnet purposes? Or the same purpose?
15:19:43 <JF> Q+ to ask if looking at differences rather than similarities might be useful
15:19:45 <laura> mc: room for subjectivity.
15:19:58 <Jen_G> Jen_G has joined #ag
15:20:05 <Jen_G> Present+
15:20:21 <alastairc> ack Chuck
15:20:21 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to respond to Wilco, and moving to end of queue
15:20:23 <laura> ... details can move around but are gernarlly the same.
15:20:52 <laura> chuck: philosophical differences between the 2.
15:21:02 <alastairc> ack Jaunita_George_
15:21:07 <laura> ... would be a challenging ask.
15:21:39 <laura> jg: would be difficult to be dificult to get  consensus on.
15:22:19 <laura> ... measurements are diffferent.
15:22:58 <Jaunita_George_> q+
15:23:09 <alastairc> ack JF
15:23:09 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if looking at differences rather than similarities might be useful
15:23:34 <laura> JF: one does not have measurements.
15:24:02 <GreggVan> q+
15:24:07 <laura> ... subjective. can't measure "delesious."
15:24:07 <MichaelC> q+ to clarify similarity
15:24:20 <alastairc> ack Jaunita_George_
15:24:21 <laura> ... one is about measurement the other is not.
15:25:07 <laura> jg: feeling that a statement in conformence will not be enough.
15:25:35 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:25:41 <laura> ... can drive a truck though conformance statements and VPATs
15:25:57 <MichaelC> q+ to say next steps, examples
15:26:01 <JF> Q+
15:26:17 <laura> gregg: are there examples? Need a minimum of 3 examples.
15:26:49 <laura> s/3 examples/4 examples/
15:27:26 <MichaelC> ack me
15:27:26 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to clarify similarity and to say next steps, examples
15:27:29 <alastairc> ack MichaelC
15:27:43 <Jaunita_George_> +1 MichaelC
15:27:45 <laura> mc: I have examples. That is a next step.
15:28:01 <laura> ... I can take an action and work on it.
15:28:16 <Rachael> q+
15:28:25 <laura> ... I don't see the proposals as different.
15:28:52 <alastairc> ack JF
15:28:55 <laura> ... will be harder for public to review 2 propsals.
15:29:21 <Chuck> q+ to observe that the conversation highlights the philosophical differences, and propose a way forward
15:29:40 <laura> jf: in epub they have a manefest.
15:30:09 <alastairc> proposed RESOLUTION: The sub-group will draft initial draft text for the editor's draft for each proposal, and work on examples.
15:31:07 <Wilco> @alastairc, can we clarify timeline on that?
15:31:22 <laura> ... (gives exampes of protocals)
15:31:45 <alastairc> q?
15:31:48 <alastairc> ack Rachael
15:31:55 <Jaunita_George_> q+
15:32:45 <laura> rm: put them in separately.
15:33:15 <Jaunita_George_> +1
15:33:19 <laura> ... in different areas of the draft.
15:33:25 <Chuck> +1
15:33:45 <GreggVan> q+
15:33:52 <alastairc> ack Chuck
15:33:52 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to observe that the conversation highlights the philosophical differences, and propose a way forward
15:34:05 <laura> ac: anyone work on draft veribage?
15:34:13 <laura> jf: sign me up.
15:34:25 <JF> Q+
15:34:38 <alastairc> ack jua
15:34:41 <alastairc> ack Jaunita_George_
15:34:42 <laura> chuck: sent back to  the group with examples.
15:34:42 <Chuck> ack jau
15:35:04 <laura> jg: each team could meet separately.
15:35:20 <Wilco> q+
15:35:24 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:35:25 <laura> ac: makes sense.
15:35:31 <JF> ack me
15:35:41 <michael> michael has joined #ag
15:35:51 <laura> gregg: need at least 4 examples.
15:36:15 <michael> Present+ mbgower
15:37:02 <laura> ... for mc, if 2 can be brought together then have 4 example.
15:37:05 <alastairc> ack Wilco
15:37:47 <laura> wilco: will we need to delay new subgroups?
15:38:01 <alastairc> q?
15:38:06 <laura> mc: won't stop me.
15:39:29 <laura> mc: can have examples in a couple weeks.
15:39:51 <laura> jf: can take another run at it.
15:40:10 <laura> ac: need text for the draft.
15:41:08 <laura> jf: conformace is a intragal to the proposal.
15:41:34 <laura> ... educational compontent is key.
15:42:06 <alastairc> proposed RESOLUTION: The sub-group will draft initial draft  for the editor's draft for each proposal (separately).
15:42:08 <laura> ac: would need to present it group in 3 weeks.
15:42:18 <alastairc> proposed RESOLUTION: The sub-group will draft initial text  for the editor's draft for each proposal (separately).
15:42:29 <Chuck> +1
15:42:47 <GreggVan> q+
15:42:53 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:43:06 <JF> * I can have stuff ready for 2 weeks
15:43:07 <Jaunita_George_> +1
15:43:11 <Rachael> +1 to resolution
15:43:34 <Wilco> 0 on resolution
15:43:45 <laura> gregg: need examples before coming back to this group.
15:44:10 <jeanne> 0  - not a high priority before TPAC
15:44:11 <Chuck> q+ to suggest we postpone review of other survey questions
15:44:38 <alastairc> RESOLUTION: The sub-group will draft initial text  for the editor's draft for each proposal (separately).
15:44:49 <alastairc> ack Chuck
15:44:49 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to suggest we postpone review of other survey questions
15:45:06 <Jaunita_George_> +1
15:45:17 <laura> chuck: lets' skip other survey questions.
15:45:46 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:45:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG 3 Subgroup participation and handbook https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/subgroups-2022-06 -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:46:02 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/subgroups-2022-06/results
15:46:55 <laura> ac: most people availabile for sub groups.
15:47:02 <alastairc> TOPIC: Subgroup Interest
15:47:14 <laura> ... good spread.
15:47:30 <laura> ... scoping was of least interest.
15:47:42 <GreggVan> q+
15:47:56 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:48:06 <laura> gregg: what is scoping?
15:48:29 <laura> ac: wcag 2 scoing was the page.
15:48:38 <Rachael> Q+
15:48:49 <AWK> Will the survey be reopened?
15:48:49 <alastairc> ack Rachael
15:48:50 <GreggVan> q+
15:49:29 <laura> rm: this group will explore using SEO intents to define user processes/journeys.
15:49:56 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:50:25 <laura> gregg: scope og wcag was not a page. Coiuld be a whole web app.
15:50:39 <Chuck> I have reopened the survey, presently through 7/19
15:51:17 <laura> ... not sure what SEO means. Need socping defined.
15:51:18 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #ag
15:51:25 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
15:51:29 <Lauriat> Present+
15:52:10 <Rachael> We 4 initially proposed scopes to explore at https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#testing
15:52:19 <laura> ac: scopign would allow you to conformbased  on the user journey/path.
15:52:55 <laura> greg: sounds like point of evaluation.
15:54:15 <Wilco> q+
15:54:15 <laura> ac:  think of it as  scoping for the conformace statement.
15:54:40 <alastairc> ack Wilco
15:55:00 <laura> wilco: leave survey until the end of the day.
15:55:02 <Azlan> I can join scoping
15:55:02 <AWK> thanks, Chuck
15:55:21 <GreggVan> I am willing to contribute to scoping but cannot do 4 hrs a week on it -- and don't want to do it in lieu of equity
15:55:39 <laura> wilco:  will depend o meeting times too.
15:55:54 <Wilco> q+
15:55:58 <alastairc> ack Wilco
15:56:14 <kirkwood__> kirkwood__ has joined #AG
15:56:22 <Wilco> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_caRiZaTQDmsd2Vq415sz4AIullNse-GeGtohUfg_5M/edit#heading=h.gzpoqn1jwaec
15:56:30 <laura> wilco: can go  through subgroup hand book.
15:56:34 <Wilco> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit#gid=1247745107
15:56:56 <laura> ... new direction we want to try out.
15:57:35 <laura> ... subgroups are scoped to 8 weeks.
15:58:29 <laura> ... more flexible. need 4 approx hours a week.
15:59:16 <laura> ... groups set up by the chairs.
15:59:36 <laura> ... need pull request to update the drat at week 8.
15:59:55 <laura> ... not everything will be merged. That's fine.
16:00:32 <laura> ... comitment 4 hous/wk. If that doesn't work rach out to the chairs.
16:00:37 <alastairc> scribe: sarahhorton
16:00:45 <laura> ... can present to the sivler TF.
16:01:11 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Week 8 feedback incorporated, presented again to AGWG for final
16:01:17 <laura> ... rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:47 <sarahhorton> ... exceptions, if group needs more time, can't put in 4 hours, connect with chairs
16:02:16 <sarahhorton> ... reach out, group-ag-plan@w3.org
16:02:40 <sarahhorton> ... facilitator responsibilities, described in doc, e.g., notifying chairs, documenting in wiki
16:03:09 <sarahhorton> ... facilitators may do less writing
16:03:20 <sarahhorton> ... approach, trial, focus on getting content before TPAC
16:03:21 <Jennie_> q+
16:03:26 <alastairc> ack Jennie_
16:03:53 <sarahhorton> Jennie_: Great doc — add something to speak to Taskforce subgroups, to understand how interfaces
16:04:00 <Rachael> Q+
16:04:10 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:04:45 <Jennie_> q+
16:04:48 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Does not influence how subgroups and task forces are current doing, this is separate\
16:04:49 <alastairc> ack Jennie_
16:05:02 <laura> s/afuture /a future /
16:05:18 <sarahhorton> Jennie_: Thanks, recommend, since language is the same, could distinction be added to document?
16:05:30 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Yes, will work that out
16:05:31 <Rachael> +1 to either different names or adding clarification
16:05:49 <sarahhorton> GreggVan: Call them AG subgroups?
16:05:50 <laura> s/proproasls /proposals /
16:06:00 <sarahhorton> alastairc: WCAG 3 content subgroups?
16:06:09 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Will figure out, good point
16:06:24 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:06:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Moving the charter forward https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/charter_July_22/ -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:06:25 <laura> s/talke/talk/
16:06:50 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Previous discussions, have sent to AC for prelim review, no feedback yet
16:07:05 <sarahhorton> ... next step to make sure AG is happy
16:07:13 <laura> s/derer /defer /
16:07:15 <sarahhorton> ... reviewing survey results
16:07:34 <GreggVan> \][p\][p'
16:07:39 <sarahhorton> ... 404 issue, updated
16:07:49 <alastairc> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2022/draft-ag-decision-policy.html
16:07:51 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Should be working now
16:07:52 <laura> s/a either /an either /
16:07:57 <GreggVan> s/\][p\][p'//
16:08:18 <sarahhorton> alastairc: [reviews responses]
16:09:07 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Unclear what was transitional, put in example to clarify, minor edits
16:09:28 <sarahhorton> ... include EO for WCAG 3
16:09:38 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Good point
16:09:55 <sarahhorton> ... [reviews responses]
16:10:33 <sarahhorton> GreggVan: Might get people to agree if called candidate
16:10:51 <sarahhorton> ... middle bullet, deliverables
16:11:48 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Expanded in conformance section, add "candidate", any objections?
16:11:48 <alastairc> Suggested scope update: "Conformance model" to "Candidate conformance model"
16:12:41 <sarahhorton> alastairc: [reviews responses]
16:13:25 <sarahhorton> ... in 1.2, "by end of next charter",  should be "this charter"?
16:13:29 <alastairc> "Any requirement or challenge without a demonstrated solution that has AG WG consensus by the end of the next charter will be excluded from WCAG 3."
16:13:38 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Yes, should be "this charter"
16:14:05 <sarahhorton> alastairc: [reviews responses]
16:15:09 <sarahhorton> ... most people happy, few small changes, standout of negative paragraph
16:15:30 <sarahhorton> ... will take away
16:15:42 <Rachael> q+
16:15:43 <sarahhorton> ... anything else?
16:16:29 <Chuck> +1
16:16:31 <laura> +1 to awks rewrite
16:16:36 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: It's a rewrite of the negative text
16:16:45 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Looks like good update
16:16:50 <Chuck> q?
16:16:57 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:17:25 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Silver Friday meeting, starting to capture use cases, lessons learned from categorization exercise
16:17:47 <sarahhorton> ... trying to finish up — 20 more, help appreciated
16:18:16 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m8J2zxoinwPQmLanLMUk_M0U4ttfTUvEkussPKLns-E/edit#heading=h.ej6nktjsuln8
16:19:07 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Have been working on migration cases for different SCs, talk about usual things, questions, concerns
16:19:23 <sarahhorton> ... several raised, realized should capture them
16:20:02 <Azlan> I have to drop
16:20:07 <sarahhorton> ... list in doc concerns, have list, when testing new ways to structure, test, categorize, can go to list, test against usual cases
16:21:01 <sarahhorton> ... anyone who worked on any and had concerns, please add to list, will be helpful, put in SC number, name, link to migration doc, short issue description
16:21:28 <jeanne> List of SC -> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXIaJxQCyuOTkvLcJR5QgTN13h6dIgtUlE7H9CUCvew/edit?usp=sharing
16:21:53 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Look at migration exercises, quite a few done, a few gaps, docs available where gaps
16:22:06 <jeanne> Folder -> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1t9H47G5gIUUSONx-Aly3UGCfQ7G0NI_V
16:22:40 <sarahhorton> ... a few to go, please have a go
16:22:57 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Charter survey, but in edits, check they are correct
16:23:06 <sarahhorton> alastairc: CfC next
16:23:14 <Francis_Storr> q+
16:23:22 <alastairc> ack Francis_Storr
16:23:51 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about decision policy
16:24:03 <sarahhorton> Francis_Storr: Proposed redesign, is that going to roll out?
16:24:28 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Minor edits with Jeanne and Rachael, rolled out
16:24:51 <sarahhorton> ... redesign, almost there but something's broken, have to figure out
16:25:06 <sarahhorton> ... keep bugging
16:25:33 <sarahhorton> ... CfC on charter, are changes to decision policy part of CfC or separate?
16:25:33 <MichaelC> ack me
16:25:33 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about decision policy
16:25:51 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Can do separately, haven't reviewed because of 404, give people change to review
16:25:56 <sarahhorton> ... with diff
16:26:10 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Some people wanted to see that before voting on charter
16:26:27 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Yes decision policy then CfC
16:26:55 <Rachael> present+
16:26:56 <maryjom> present+
16:26:57 <laura> laura has left #ag
16:27:00 <Jaunita_George_> present+
16:27:01 <jeanne> present+
16:27:38 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-ag-minutes.html sarahhorton
16:27:50 <michael> Present mbgower
16:33:18 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG20/Institutional_Memory
18:49:24 <shawn> shawn has joined #ag