16:56:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/07-aria-irc
16:56:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
16:57:01 <spectranaut> meeting: ARIA WG
16:57:10 <spectranaut> agendabot, find agenda
16:57:10 <agendabot> spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
16:57:11 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220707T130000
16:57:11 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:57:11 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3P4bHm7
16:57:11 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3NH8HLr
16:57:13 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:57:16 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Tidying up section "Characteristics of Roles" https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1733
16:57:19 <agendabot> agenda+  -> tracking issue for <dialog> & role=dialog https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1708
16:57:22 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816
16:57:25 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Internationalization Wide Review: "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
16:57:28 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc
16:57:53 <spectranaut> present+ valerie_young
16:59:41 <IrfanA> IrfanA has joined #aria
16:59:45 <IrfanA> present+
16:59:47 <IrfanA> agenda?
17:00:48 <chlane> present+
17:02:05 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:04:40 <IrfanA> Scribe: IrfanA
17:04:43 <dakahn> dakahn has joined #aria
17:04:44 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:04:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3P4bHm7 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:08 <scotto> present+
17:06:09 <MichaelC> present+
17:06:12 <jcraig> present+
17:06:13 <dakahn> present+
17:06:25 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:06:54 <IrfanA> spectranaut: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/422
17:07:34 <IrfanA> MichaelC: it came to the attention of the APA for horizontal review. It is an ARIA issue which has details. HTML AAM editors needs to look into this issue.
17:07:51 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:08:11 <IrfanA> scotto: this is something similar that we did for HTML attribute
17:08:30 <IrfanA> MichaelC: we do not need to rush to this for 1.2. Perhaps Scot has an idea
17:09:02 <IrfanA> scotto: I would not consider it as high priority. need to figure out the scope and priority
17:09:26 <IrfanA> MichaelC: may be we do not need to track this.
17:09:58 <IrfanA> scotto: I am subscribe to it.
17:10:11 <IrfanA> MichaelC: in this case we can close this issue
17:11:01 <IrfanA> scotto: I'll leave it open as of now
17:12:51 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421
17:13:40 <IrfanA> scotto: The reason I filed this issue that john has filed an issue that input file should not be a button by default in mapping.
17:14:14 <IrfanA> scotto: I did find some issues about how it was being rendered.
17:14:27 <IrfanA> spectranaut: do we need to add it in our agenda item?
17:14:32 <IrfanA> scotto: yeap
17:15:10 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
17:15:17 <IrfanA> spectranaut: this is an agenda item for today
17:15:30 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/127
17:16:19 <IrfanA> spectranaut: a11y mapping on microsoft
17:16:46 <IrfanA> jcraig: including ff and chrome on windows
17:17:05 <IrfanA> spectranaut: we do not have milestone for this one.
17:17:19 <IrfanA> scotto: creating a milestone on coreAAM makes sense
17:17:35 <IrfanA> spectranaut: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/419
17:18:16 <IrfanA> scotto: if I understand, 1.3 is full so this may need to be pushed for 1.4
17:18:21 <IrfanA> spectranaut: agreed
17:18:49 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:18:49 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3NH8HLr -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:06 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/420
17:19:13 <IrfanA> spectranaut: it needs reviews
17:19:53 <IrfanA> scotto: we would be fine mapping the address to the group.
17:20:07 <IrfanA> jcraig: you can add me as reviewer.
17:22:15 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1762
17:22:22 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria
17:23:38 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:23:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:37 <IrfanA> spectranaut: Aaron, do you want to discuss dialog when you are available?
17:25:29 <IrfanA> aaronlev: we can schedule it for the 28th
17:25:37 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:25:37 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Tidying up section "Characteristics of Roles" https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1733 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:20 <IrfanA> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1733
17:26:55 <IrfanA> zakim, close this item
17:26:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:26:56 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:26:56 <Zakim> 5. -> tracking issue for <dialog> & role=dialog https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1708 [from agendabot]
17:26:59 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:26:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> tracking issue for <dialog> & role=dialog https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1708 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:34 <IrfanA> zakim, close this item
17:27:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:27:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:27:35 <Zakim> 6. -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816 [from agendabot]
17:27:37 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
17:27:37 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:28:33 <IrfanA> scotto: this is an issue that I took over. I cameup with some proposal to resolve this and to provide some potential functionality in ARIA to associate some cells
17:29:14 <IrfanA> scotto: I created a proposed text in the bottom of the ticket
17:29:31 <IrfanA> scotto: if people like this idea, then i can make a PR to this
17:30:59 <IrfanA> scotto: I have only partial testing results.
17:31:23 <IrfanA> scotto: its getting specified in aria that we can use as an outline for expected behavior
17:31:59 <IrfanA> jcraig: why do we want to use aria-label instead of header alternative?
17:33:07 <IrfanA> scotto: abbr attr is supposed to provide a shorter text, if we use aria-label, there is always a conflict with various AT
17:34:52 <jcraig> q+ to say column header is not "children presentational: true"  https://w3c.github.io/aria/#columnheader
17:34:55 <jcraig> ack me
17:34:55 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say column header is not "children presentational: true"  https://w3c.github.io/aria/#columnheader
17:36:43 <IrfanA> spectranaut: is it for 1.3?
17:36:52 <IrfanA> scotto: would not push for 1.3 anymore
17:37:59 <IrfanA> scotto: creating this proposal for cell headers, right in HTML you can specify a number of column or row header. I propose that we write that up.
17:38:10 <jcraig> q+
17:38:23 <IrfanA> scotto: curious if we can specify it somewhere else?
17:38:33 <IrfanA> ack jcraig
17:39:05 <IrfanA> jcraig: Looked attr name which is very long
17:39:13 <chlane> scribe/ chlane
17:39:33 <chlane> jcraig: Is this use case more broad than table cell headers?
17:39:58 <chlane> heading or fieldset alternative
17:40:05 <chlane> how to make a little more useful
17:40:13 <chlane> can we live with aria-label
17:40:43 <jcraig> chlane: I think this solves the problem re: buttons in header cells
17:41:13 <jcraig> chlane: we haven't been solving this with aria-label or aria-labelledby...
17:41:26 <chlane> aria label on col header
17:41:33 <chlane> either content is announced
17:41:42 <chlane> or subtree is overwritten
17:41:50 <chlane> subtree is overwittern
17:42:06 <chlane> jcraig: presentational true behavior
17:42:21 <chlane> scotto: subtree content is respected or the opposite is true
17:42:30 <chlane> scotto: see jcraig 's point
17:42:49 <chlane> scotto: be specific on how label works on headers
17:43:05 <chlane> scotto: could this be more useful on fieldset, legend, table caption
17:44:12 <chlane> Siri: it should not replace acc name
17:44:22 <chlane> should convey row header col header?
17:44:29 <chlane> ctrl-arrow
17:44:36 <chlane> this is what will be read
17:44:55 <chlane> I want accname, not another value?
17:45:25 <chlane> Siri: read whole content if you want to?
17:45:48 <chlane> scotto: intent to have the alt string read when navigating cells of table
17:45:53 <chlane> it should not change accname
17:46:09 <chlane> it should allow for an alternative to be announced
17:46:47 <chlane> would not be part of accName
17:47:13 <jcraig> <th aria-headeralternative="foo">Foo <button>sort</button></th>
17:47:36 <chlane> jcraig: when you land on header you want it to say foo
17:47:51 <chlane> but as navigating accross columns
17:48:02 <chlane> it is including the sort button
17:48:13 <chlane> scotto: that is one way this could be helpful
17:48:23 <chlane> aria-actions could be used as an alternative
17:48:39 <chlane> the use case more towards the code in the issue
17:48:43 <chlane> leave sort button out
17:49:01 <chlane> when the text of that string was 'my activities(all logged activity)'
17:49:21 <chlane> I don't meed to hear 'all logged activity' all the time
17:49:39 <chlane> should just hear 'my activities', 'my dates'
17:49:48 <chlane> as I read columns
17:50:02 <chlane> jcraig: in context where it is more appropriate to be terse
17:50:20 <chlane> scotto: I think this goes to how list items allow for aria-label
17:50:32 <chlane> intent was to allow for a terse representation of <li>
17:50:51 <chlane> someone should still be able to read the <li> text content
17:51:00 <chlane> more extended use case
17:51:05 <chlane> beyond col headers
17:51:23 <chlane> jcraig: whatever bike shed name we need a number of examples
17:51:31 <chlane> of where its useful
17:51:45 <chlane> on colheader it makes sense to read the whole thing
17:51:58 <chlane> but in cell use terse
17:52:14 <chlane> static list item, how are we going to call out when to use terse
17:52:29 <chlane> aria-label and aria-terse-label
17:52:40 <chlane> how does AT determine which to read/
17:52:43 <chlane> ?
17:52:49 <chlane> short or long
17:53:08 <chlane> scotto: may not agree with what I just said about list items
17:53:14 <chlane> fieldset legend
17:53:22 <chlane> long lengend for radio group
17:53:33 <chlane> navigating into cells, hear terse
17:53:39 <chlane> choose fav color
17:53:44 <chlane> jcraig: good one
17:53:55 <chlane> Voiceover summary
17:54:12 <chlane> reads position and structure
17:54:43 <chlane> Siri: shortcut, if different from col header users might not get same info
17:54:49 <chlane> scotto: it can be abused
17:55:08 <chlane> jcraig: hard to enforce
17:55:19 <chlane> fieldset legemd
17:55:33 <chlane> favorite could be shortened to 'fav'
17:55:40 <chlane> hard to enforce, elevator rule
17:55:52 <jcraig> s/elevator/validator/
17:55:55 <chlane> scotto: authoring guidance
17:56:25 <chlane> scotto: have to finish testing on how the html attributes are not working
17:56:41 <chlane> spectranaut: list of general cases summarized
17:57:07 <chlane> scotto: further comments on cell headers are needed
17:57:37 <chlane> zakim. next agendum
17:57:49 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:57:49 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Internationalization Wide Review: "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:59:21 <IrfanA> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/07-aria-minutes.html IrfanA
17:59:33 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/07-aria-minutes.html chlane
18:04:07 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #aria
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18:21:04 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
18:21:56 <chlane> https://gitlab.eng.vmware.com/a11yreporting/reporting-tool/-/issues/208
18:22:09 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
18:22:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/07-aria-minutes.html chlane