15:02:06 RRSAgent has joined #auto 15:02:06 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-irc 15:02:08 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:09 scribenick: ted 15:02:10 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 15:02:16 Chair: Daniel 15:02:19 present+ 15:02:20 Scribe: Ted 15:02:23 Meeting: VSSo 15:02:27 Present+ Ted 15:02:38 Present+ Daniel, Felix, Carine, DanielA 15:04:12 Topic: VSSo lead 15:04:41 Daniel: unsure if I will be able to be part of this group going forward 15:05:00 … BMW needs to figure out still who they're sending 15:05:17 … DanielA will still be involved 15:05:29 … Felix also has been deeply involved 15:05:47 DanielA: I am quite open to discuss how we can support this 15:05:52 Felix: also from my side 15:06:19 … hope you will be able to remain involved 15:08:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted 15:10:38 Topic: Pull Requests 15:10:39 https://github.com/w3c/vsso/pull/41 15:11:47 Daniel: we discussed three option: no root node but separate branches; core vehicle as a class and annotation property and vehicle component of root of instances 15:12:05 … we decided to go with option 3 but wait to allow for any reactions or feedback 15:12:47 Felix: option 3 is probably the best, 2 is a bit awkward, 1 would have a disconnect 15:12:59 … 3 would be instance of vehicle component, right? 15:13:04 Daniel: exactly 15:13:10 Felix: then I agree with 3 15:13:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted 15:13:46 Daniel: I'll merge this one for now, review the changes and modify from there as needed 15:13:56 Felix: fine with me 15:14:13 DanielA: what would be the name of the root vehicle component? 15:14:53 vsso:Vehicle 15:15:17 s/vsso:Vehicle/Daniel: vsso:Vehicle/ 15:15:50 DanielA: we should include descriptions in the documentation to avoid confusion 15:15:54 Daniel: yes 15:16:51 Topic: Issues 15:17:08 https://github.com/w3c/vsso/issues/44 15:17:28 DanielA: the generated documentation is wrong in some places 15:18:08 https://github.com/w3c/vsso/issues/13 15:18:58 DanielA: current status is reflected in the top figure 15:19:46 … intention is to add value to this property. it has some drawbacks, simplicity is nice but here comes with limitations in practical use 15:20:13 … whenever you want to update the value you will need to first delete current triple and insert new one. not a big issue but a two step approach 15:20:50 … if you want to add multiple values or more information you might need new properties for that. it is preventing you from having a model with different units 15:21:15 … since the previous workshop, the resolution was to have specific dynamic vehicle properties as instances instead of subclasses 15:21:40 … in this diagram you can see if you add specific data properties to eg speed you will have multiple triples tied to the instance 15:22:00 … in practice you may have access to multiple triples 15:22:19 Felix: for me the speed property needs to be created under the vehicle identifier 15:22:36 DanielA: there is no possibility to identify the values are associated 15:23:06 Felix: prefix with vehicle identifier or vehiclePropertyValue as a class with vehicle name and associated properties 15:23:32 Daniel: conclusion at the workshop was to use SOSA for historic instead of current state 15:24:03 DanielA: how would this work in practice? 15:24:24 Daniel: one proposal was SOSA or could be a simple observation 15:24:38 … you won't have a connection to vsso speed 15:24:52 … problem is clear, let's see your proposal 15:25:56 DanielA: we need something linked to a specific vehicle and want something similar to what is shown here 15:26:34 … this vehicle has this property value. you just instantiate the values and link/point to the vehicle 15:26:49 … this would allow you to have additional linked meta data 15:28:06 … if you want freedom to express speed in alternate units, eg miles instead of km, you can change the quantity velue 15:28:45 Felix: this makes sense. in VSS we have concrete units defined so maybe we encourage consistence in km/h 15:29:03 Daniel: you don't want to attach metadata with every value 15:29:22 Felix: question is how strict or relaxed should we be without diluting the standard 15:29:56 … in US people are use to miles but it is easy to convert when displaying 15:30:19 Daniel: we discussed in VSS. we took the unit configuration out and put into a configuration file 15:30:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted 15:30:43 … you're not necessarily losing information 15:31:49 Pierre-Antoine: question is who gets the burden if you choose flexibility. if you allow alternate units, it is more work for the consumer 15:32:24 DanielA: I would vote to fix the unit 15:33:07 Felix: most important is to agree on vehicle property class so we can express the values 15:34:41 Ted: also supporting fixed units, it will make adoption more difficult for US OEM and other data producers as well as consumers. 15:35:09 Felix: QNX for example comes with conversion utilities 15:35:29 s/QNX/QUTT/ 15:35:36 DanielA: the conversion should be kept out of the ontology 15:35:43 Felix: agree 15:37:47 DanielA: we need to agree to unit names 15:37:53 Daniel: why not use existing? 15:38:12 DanielA: wondering whether to reuse concepts from other ontologies or have all concepts in VSSo 15:38:23 Daniel: leverage SOSA for example? 15:38:28 DanielA: right 15:39:20 Daniel: it would depend on definition, the concepts are trivial. we can start with the one we have but you're welcome to start another issue 15:39:28 Felix: sounds good 15:40:00 Daniel: did you want it in the core or somewhere else? 15:40:29 DanielA: as an object property 15:40:47 Daniel: do a proposal as a pull request on top 15:40:53 DanielA: I can do that 15:41:12 Daniel: I will look at the tooling 15:41:51 https://github.com/w3c/vsso/issues/22 15:42:14 DanielA: problem was having specific dynamic values as instances instead of subclasses 15:42:40 … static properties could be a subclass instead of an instance, point to any related concepts from their ontologies 15:42:58 … that way you reuse scope of VSSo and you can point to specific properties 15:43:37 Daniel: all the static values would be better as instances so you can collect for evaluation 15:43:55 … harder to query otherwise 15:44:43 … any other opinions? 15:44:57 DanielA: if you have other concept or interest and want to express more 15:45:14 … if you have a vehicle, you can link to concept somewhere else 15:45:51 Felix: data management systems are a philosophy in and of itself. every OEM is doing it differently 15:46:01 … its a nightmware 15:46:58 DanielA: if you look at the diagram, you can connect to more specific description 15:48:09 Daniel: you can get more specific 15:48:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted 15:48:34 DanielA: in the end you want the characteristics in 15:48:52 Daniel: somewhere you'll need to define what the concept of a "brand" (example) is 15:49:33 … I agree with you but some of this is defined. concepts are there but do we need to get more specific/granular or keep it higher level? 15:50:02 Felix: that is true for all the things we model in VSSo. it is fine for the purposes we have 15:50:27 … ontology modeling is sufficient 15:51:19 DanielA: you want to remain open to be able to link to other concepts 15:52:07 Daniel: for static vehicle properties you might want additional information indeed and if it doesn't fit in VSS link and express elsewhere 15:52:40 Pierre-Antoine: can you give an example with brand being a class instead of instance? 15:52:48 Daniel: I can come up for next time 15:53:32 Felix: you can link individual vehicles to brand directly, the linkage would be vehicle is of brand. we would be expanding VSS 15:54:07 DanielA: the benefit is clearer for other data points like number of tires 15:54:31 Pierre-Antoine: the pattern you are looking at is a classic one, it uses SOSA properties since it is similar to observations there 15:54:56 … something that happens to be an instance of brand 15:55:14 … agree many of these are not needed as a class 15:56:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted 15:57:07 DanielA: in some cases one property is not enough 15:58:05 Daniel: I would like to see static as properties but some should be part of the instantiation 15:58:40 … open to a counter proposal 15:59:03 … thanks for the discussion, continue in two weeks 15:59:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/27-auto-minutes.html ted