16:01:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #json-ld
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/22-json-ld-irc
16:01:36 <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
16:01:39 <TallTed> present+
16:01:41 <TallTed> present+
16:01:49 <plh> Meeting: JSON-LD CG meeting
16:01:51 <dlehn1> present+
16:01:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Gregg_Kellogg, plh, dlehn, TallTed
16:02:00 <gkellogg> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/043b29e7-f596-41d3-9c86-3b894bdb1487
16:02:00 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:02:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Announcements and Introductions
16:02:00 <agendabot> agenda+ YAML-LD
16:02:00 <agendabot> agenda+ JSON-LD-star
16:02:00 <agendabot> agenda+ JSON-LD Spec updates
16:02:02 <agendabot> agenda+ Schedule next call
16:02:06 <pchampin> present+
16:02:12 <gkellogg> meeting: JSON-LD CG/WG
16:02:13 <Orie> Orie has joined #json-ld
16:02:21 <Orie> present+
16:02:22 <gkellogg> chair: gkellogg
16:02:49 <Orie> scribe+
16:02:59 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:02:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements and Introductions -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:09 <Orie> Topic: Welcome
16:03:45 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: JSON-LD CG -- 2022-06-22 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/043b29e7-f596-41d3-9c86-3b894bdb1487
16:03:53 <Orie> gkellogg: the CG as been anointed to make updated to specs  / publish new ones... by the JSON-LD WG.
16:04:15 <Orie> ... to start off, we have had a lot of interest in YAML-LD lately.
16:04:26 <Orie> Topic: Introductions
16:04:50 <Orie> gkellogg: I'm Editor of JSON-LD 1.0 / 1.1, I've worked in CGs as well.
16:05:20 <Orie> niklas: I was also in the WG / co-author JSON-LD 1.0... I work a the national library of sweden, and we use jsonld
16:05:32 <Orie> ... i've been interested in RDF * / JSON-lD *
16:06:19 <Orie> Anatoly: I work at datafold, i'm a software developer, interested in semantic data... I'm building an open source project that works on knowledge graphs
16:06:37 <Orie> ... I first learned of these 10 years ago, but only now I have a project to work on them, excited to be here.
16:07:22 <Orie> DaveLehn: I work at Digital Bazaar, we've used JSON-LD for some time, current maintainer of jsonld.js... want to keep pushing the tech forward.
16:07:44 <Orie> TallTed: I'm with OpenLink Software, I'm in all W3C groups.
16:08:29 <Orie> Philippe: I'm the team contact for W3C for the JSON-LD WG.
16:09:04 <gkellogg> zakim, who's here?
16:09:04 <Zakim> Present: Gregg_Kellogg, plh, dlehn, TallTed, pchampin, Orie
16:09:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Orie, RRSAgent, plh, niklasl, anatoly-scherbakov, TallTed, gkellogg, pchampin, ghurlbot, dlehn1, `join_subline, dlehn, manu, dlongley, bigbluehat, raboof_,
16:09:05 <Zakim> ... hadleybeeman, Pierre-Antoine, Zakim, agendabot, csarven, sknebel
16:09:40 <Orie> Roberto: I work for video <inaudible> department of italy, interested in web apis.... interested in standardization... I'm also interested in standardizing... <inaudible>
16:10:33 <Orie> Pierre-Antoine: I joined the W3C Team, I've helped shepherd the RDF WG /RDF *... interested in JSON-LD... and interested in augmenting it to cover RDF*
16:10:37 <gkellogg> scribe+
16:11:41 <Orie> Melinda: I'm based in BC, CA, I work on the World Data System, international technology office, I was given a task to build federated search for arctic research data... I'm interested in research dataset markup.
16:12:09 <gkellogg> Orie: I'm Orie Steel, CTO and founder of transumte. I'm an other of the DID spec and work with Verifiable Credentials.
16:12:27 <gkellogg> ... We apply JSON-LD DIDs for securing global trade documents for import/export.
16:12:43 <gkellogg> ... I'm interested in YAML-LD and YAML as a more human readable way of working with Linked Data.
16:12:53 <gkellogg> scribe-
16:13:11 <Orie> gkellogg: to repeat for those who are not present yet, we are using IRC
16:13:31 <melinda-minch> melinda-minch has joined #json-ld
16:13:33 <Orie> ... we use IRC for voting / recording minutes, etc.
16:13:33 <ioggstream> ioggstream has joined #json-ld
16:13:42 <ioggstream> Hi folks!
16:13:49 <Orie> ... You can use a native IRC client if you like.
16:14:09 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/json-ld/calendar
16:14:30 <Orie> gkellogg: We have a F2F tentative in Vancouver
16:14:34 <melinda-minch> like this? `@present+ Melinda Minch`
16:14:34 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/present -> @present
16:14:37 <Orie> ... see the calendar
16:14:48 <niklasl> present+
16:14:48 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:14:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- YAML-LD -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:15:01 <Orie> Topic: YAML-LD
16:15:01 <melinda-minch> present+
16:15:07 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/projects/1
16:15:20 <Orie> gkellogg: in the WG, we used the github projects feature to manage the open issues
16:15:27 <Orie> ... we have created a number of issues
16:15:36 <Orie> ... focusing first on use cases
16:15:48 <Orie> ... eventually we will look at spec / testing
16:16:00 <Orie> ... there is one issue regarding the spec and media types
16:16:18 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld
16:16:19 <Orie> ... the purpose of working issues, is to create use case documents or working towards a specification
16:16:51 <Orie> ... typically we use pull requests, which means we will need to identify editors for each document managed in github
16:17:07 <Orie> ... we are seeking editors
16:17:28 <Orie> ... there is work required to transform use cases from issues
16:17:46 <Orie> ... for example "compatibility with existing libraries"
16:18:08 <Orie> ... "as a developer I would like to use existing libraries so that work developing is easier...etc"
16:18:31 <Orie> ... we use "ReSpec" to document specs / use cases as HTML.
16:18:50 <Orie> ... we have a PR preview tool which helps visualizes the changes made
16:19:05 <Orie> ... this allows for the community to review changes and make constructive comments
16:19:20 <ioggstream> Orie: to ease collaboration, it would be great to use bikeshed
16:19:34 <Orie> ... rather than trying to do issue review in this meeting, I would like to move on to other issues
16:19:35 <ioggstream> for building the document out of markdown
16:19:48 <Orie> ... any questions or comments before we move on/
16:20:00 <pchampin> q+
16:20:22 <Orie> roberto: we will not discussion issues?
16:20:49 <Orie> gkellogg: I want to cover the agenda before getting to specific issues
16:20:58 <Orie> ... and establish a regular call schedule
16:21:17 <Orie> ... we may want to create different calls to cover other items
16:21:29 <niklasl> +1 for different calls for different topics
16:21:38 <Orie> ... for example JSON-LD *
16:21:52 <Orie> ... there are also specification errata which needs to be addressed
16:22:09 <gkellogg> q?
16:22:10 <Orie> ...  the last thing I want to do is schedule our next call, and agree to recurring meetings
16:22:16 <gkellogg> ack pchampin
16:22:35 <Orie> pierre: I wanted to comment on bikeshed vs respec
16:22:51 <Orie> ... from what I know, bikeshed is a markdown version of respec
16:23:10 <Orie> ... if folks want to use markdown, i think respec may support it now
16:23:10 <ioggstream> whatever you prefer, as long as it's text :)
16:23:12 <Orie> q+
16:23:20 <gkellogg> ack Orie
16:23:25 <gkellogg> scribe+
16:23:48 <gkellogg> Orie: I've used both, and I think bikeshed works well.
16:24:08 <gkellogg> ... It can be hard to use if it's not set up properly, and there's some additional chances for errors or risks.
16:24:48 <gkellogg> ... I think that bikeshed is worth the lift if the advanced featuers warrant.
16:24:53 <gkellogg> q?
16:24:57 <gkellogg> q+
16:25:03 <gkellogg> ack gkellogg
16:25:27 <Orie> gkellogg: group has always used ReSpec... we have plugins / tools in ReSpec
16:25:37 <Orie> ... AFAIK, every other RDF group has used ReSpec
16:25:57 <Orie> ... my guess is that using ReSpec is probably an easier entry point
16:26:02 <gkellogg> proposal: Use ReSpec for spec and UCR documents.
16:26:09 <Orie> +1
16:26:13 <pchampin> +1
16:26:15 <TallTed> +1
16:26:18 <anatoly-scherbakov> +1
16:26:31 <plh> 0
16:26:31 <melinda-minch> 0
16:26:32 <niklasl> +0 (no strong opinion)
16:26:47 <ioggstream> Can respec use .md ?
16:26:55 <Orie> chris:  sorry i joined late, should I be looking at something?
16:27:00 <dlehn1> +1, but i had never heard of bikeshed until just now, so not an informed vote
16:27:03 <ioggstream> I just want to avoid diffing .xml docs
16:27:09 <ioggstream> on PRs
16:27:19 <ChrisMungall> ChrisMungall has joined #json-ld
16:27:19 <ericP> ericP has joined #json-ld
16:27:24 <ericP> present+
16:27:38 <ChrisMungall> present+
16:27:42 <ericP> +0
16:27:44 <Orie> gkellogg: ok so, last call for votes
16:27:46 <gkellogg> resolved:  Use ReSpec for spec and UCR documents.
16:27:57 <Orie> ... we will use respec
16:28:17 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:28:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- JSON-LD-star -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:18 <Orie> ... any other discussion regarding YAML-LD ?
16:28:32 <Orie> Topic: JSON-LD *
16:28:41 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld-star
16:28:49 <Orie> ... its fairly mature spec
16:28:52 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld-star/issues
16:29:06 <Orie> ... see the open issues, we hope to move it to a WG
16:29:08 <Orie> q+
16:29:15 <gkellogg> q?
16:29:21 <gkellogg> ack Orie
16:29:28 <ericP> q+ to ask if there's a playground for json-ld-star
16:30:13 <Orie> pierre: RDF-star is an extension of syntax and semantics to use triples as the subject or object of other triples
16:30:18 <gkellogg> Draft JSON-LD-star spec: https://json-ld.github.io/json-ld-star/
16:30:47 <Orie> ... this extension requires concrete syntax extensions, its been done for turtle... doing this for JSON-LD would cover this same update for JSON-LD
16:30:52 <gkellogg> q?
16:30:54 <niklasl> q+
16:30:58 <gkellogg> ack ericP
16:30:58 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if there's a playground for json-ld-star
16:31:08 <Orie> eric: is there a playground for JSON-LD star
16:31:25 <Orie> gkellogg: I think there is only 1 implementation of JSON-LD start so far
16:31:26 <gkellogg> http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller?command=serialize&format=jsonld&output_format=jsonld
16:31:53 <Orie> gkellogg: in the ruby version there is an option to pickup jsonld
16:32:01 <gkellogg> q?
16:32:05 <Orie> ... and serialize as JSON-LD *
16:32:06 <gkellogg> ack niklasl
16:32:15 <niklasl> https://niklasl.github.io/ldtr/demo/?url=../test/data/diff-annotated.trig
16:32:37 <Orie> niklasl: I wanted to share a tool ^ right now its a simple demo of parse & serialize, but it has some visualization
16:32:57 <Orie> ... I have added turtle-start, trig-star and jsonld-star
16:33:11 <Orie> ... you can use the tool to explore the formats
16:33:21 <Orie> ... its a pseudo playgroun
16:33:39 <Orie> eric: the bottom right corner has an editor
16:33:59 <Orie> gkellogg: would you consider a PR to the JSON-LD repo to include a link?
16:34:08 <gkellogg> q?
16:34:09 <Orie> niklas: I will look into that
16:34:17 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:34:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- JSON-LD Spec updates -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:34:29 <Orie> Topic: JSON-LD Spec Updates
16:34:39 <ericP> s/right corner has an editor/right corner ha a '<<' button which brings up an editor/
16:35:00 <Orie> gkellogg: there are a number of proposed updates to JSON-LD spec and Errata
16:35:16 <Orie> ... this is important work for the group to get too
16:35:38 <pchampin> scribe+
16:36:08 <pchampin> ... pchampin and I have been following these issues
16:36:41 <pchampin> ... plh, any info about the process to apply the errata
16:37:02 <pchampin> plh: the process was updated in Sep 2020, unfortunately, this was after JSON-LD was published
16:37:13 <pchampin> ... so the current JSON-LD Rec can not take advantage of the new process
16:38:02 <pchampin> ... because a recommendation have to "opt in" to the new process, and JSON-LD could not.
16:38:17 <pchampin> ... The probability of the process evolving to make this retroactive is very low.
16:38:43 <pchampin> gkellogg: so when the group is ready to address this modification,
16:38:44 <gkellogg> q?
16:38:52 <pchampin> ... we will need to dedicate some time to dive into the new process.
16:38:56 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:38:56 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Schedule next call -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:39:29 <pchampin> gkellogg: I would propose that the group continues to use this timeslot, on a every-other-week basis
16:39:40 <pchampin> ... (with some exceptions during summer)
16:39:52 <pchampin> ... every other week may not be enough in the future, but we can start with that.
16:40:14 <gkellogg> proposal: go to every other week schedule in this timeslot, with the next meeting being July 6
16:40:18 <niklasl> +1
16:40:18 <gkellogg> +1
16:40:19 <pchampin> <pchampin> +1
16:40:21 <dlehn1> +1
16:40:22 <plh> 0
16:40:26 <anatoly-scherbakov> +1
16:40:26 <melinda-minch> 0
16:40:41 <TallTed> +0
16:40:48 <gkellogg> resolved: go to every other week schedule in this timeslot, with the next meeting being July 6
16:41:15 <pchampin> plh: will not be able to attend these calls on a regular basis,
16:41:22 <pchampin> ... but let me know if you need me.
16:41:23 <TallTed> q+
16:41:38 <pchampin> gkellogg: ivan also said that he would try to attend, when possible.
16:41:56 <pchampin> TallTed: can we put these calls in the JSON-LD WG/CG calendar?
16:42:19 <pchampin> gkellogg: will do (already the case for this call)
16:42:40 <pchampin> ... the minutes will also be included in the calendar, and validated during the next meeting
16:42:46 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/projects/1
16:43:22 <pchampin> gkellogg: anyone having an issue they want to start with?
16:43:28 <gkellogg> issue json-ld/yaml-ld#19
16:43:29 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/19 -> Issue 19 Polyglot Modeling (VladimirAlexiev) UCR
16:45:25 <gkellogg> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues
16:45:48 <pchampin> ericP: how are people supposed to add UCRs?
16:46:06 <pchampin> gkellogg: there is an issue template for UCS in the https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld repo
16:46:15 <pchampin> s/UCS/UCRs/
16:46:20 <ericP> q+ to ask if folks are expecting to exceed JSON expressivity
16:46:37 <ericP> (meta Q to see if we're on the same page)
16:46:45 <gkellogg> q?
16:46:50 <gkellogg> ack TallTed
16:47:05 <gkellogg> q-
16:47:36 <pchampin> ericP: do people want to exceed JSON expressivity, or just use YAML as a nicer syntax for JSON?
16:47:45 <gkellogg> issue #8
16:47:46 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/8 -> Issue 8 [closed] Optimizing Compact Form (presbrey) spec-design, resolved, api
16:47:53 <anatoly-scherbakov> q+
16:47:56 <gkellogg> yaml-ld#8
16:47:56 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/8 -> Issue 8 Round-trip safe json-ld -> yaml-ld -> json-ld (ioggstream) UCR
16:48:08 <pchampin> gkellogg: I think there is an issue about that
16:48:17 <pchampin> ... (not the one above...)
16:49:00 <pchampin> ...s/not the one/see/
16:49:04 <gkellogg> yaml-ld#17
16:49:04 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/17 -> Issue 17 YAML-LD datatypes (and tags for datatypes) (VladimirAlexiev) UCR
16:49:06 <pchampin> s/not the one/see/
16:49:25 <ioggstream> q+
16:49:36 <gkellogg> q?
16:50:10 <ericP> q-
16:50:10 <gkellogg> q-
16:51:04 <Orie> +1 to JSON-LD and YAML-LD having a similar or identical set of capabilities
16:51:52 <gkellogg> q?
16:51:57 <gkellogg> q-
16:52:04 <Orie> q+
16:52:05 <dlehn1> q+
16:52:08 <anatoly-scherbakov> q-
16:52:10 <niklasl> q+
16:52:36 <gkellogg> q+
16:52:53 <Orie> +1 to exploring both the "identical" and the "enhanced" paths.. at least initially
16:53:13 <Orie> sorry I am talking now
16:53:22 <Orie> I can take back over scribing ir you like
16:53:29 <gkellogg> q-
16:53:36 <gkellogg> q-
16:53:41 <gkellogg> ack ioggstream
16:53:54 <pchampin> ioggstream: we can start with a minimal set of feature
16:53:55 <gkellogg> q+
16:54:13 <pchampin> ... allowing to serialize only roundtrippable data (except for comments)
16:54:40 <pchampin> ... once we have it, we can consider expanding it
16:55:15 <pchampin> ... for example, leveraging YAML anchors in order to reuse JSON bits in several places
16:55:23 <pchampin> ... (as long as they are not creating cycles)
16:56:22 <pchampin> ... also, it is important to define a media-type
16:56:34 <melinda-minch> Is it a goal to make these formats round-trippable between each other, or anything like that?
16:56:35 <gkellogg> q?
16:56:43 <gkellogg> ack
16:56:45 <ioggstream> ioggstream: q-
16:56:48 <gkellogg> ack Orie
16:56:50 <ioggstream> q-
16:57:09 <ericP> interestingly, YAML might no offer much referencing advantage (`&node` and `*node`) over JSON-LD 'cause it already had refs
16:57:22 <gkellogg> ack dlehn1
16:57:27 <pchampin> Orie: roundtripping is important for interoperability
16:57:29 <ericP> but not with the notion of copying data, more with re-using nodes
16:57:36 <gkellogg> ack niklasl
16:57:41 <gkellogg> ack dlehn1
16:57:47 <gkellogg> ack dlehn
16:57:51 <pchampin> ... it is exciting to explore other features, but in a 2nd time
16:58:04 <pchampin> niklas: worried about the complexity we might open up
16:58:11 <ioggstream> ericP: refs and *node are different. One happens at json-ld level, the other one at seralization level.
16:58:34 <gkellogg> q?
16:58:36 <anatoly-scherbakov> I am uncertain how referencing can help; JSON-LD can assign an @id to a node, which can be used multiple times all over the document. Do we have to encourage a duplicate feature?
16:58:36 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/id -> @id
16:58:37 <pchampin> ... my own colleagues already have problem with the RDF part of JSON-LD, they merely see JSON
16:58:46 <gkellogg> ack gkellogg
16:59:05 <pchampin> gkellogg: thanks everyone, we have a lot to chew on
16:59:22 <pchampin> ... I encourage you to continue the discussion in the issues
16:59:42 <pchampin> ... From this discussion, I think we will start with a simple profile.
16:59:47 <Orie> thanks all!
16:59:53 <anatoly-scherbakov> Thank you all very much!
16:59:53 <gkellogg> zakim, close meeting
16:59:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close meeting', gkellogg
16:59:54 <TallTed> s| https://github.com/id -> @id| |
16:59:54 <TallTed> s/@id/`@id`/
17:00:10 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
17:00:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Gregg_Kellogg, plh, dlehn, TallTed, pchampin, Orie, niklasl, melinda-minch, ericP, ChrisMungall
17:00:11 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
17:00:12 <melinda-minch> Thanks everyone, nice to meet you all
17:00:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/22-json-ld-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Gregg_Kellogg, plh, dlehn, TallTed, pchampin, Orie, niklasl, melinda-minch, ericP, ChrisMungall
17:00:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/22-json-ld-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:16 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:00:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:00:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #json-ld
17:00:22 <gkellogg> rssagent, bye
17:00:25 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:01 <gkellogg> rrsagent, bye
17:01:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items