IRC log of wcag3-protocols on 2022-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:50:40 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-protocols

11:50:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-wcag3-protocols-irc

11:51:18 [Jaunita_George]

zakim, start meeting

11:51:18 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

11:51:19 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Jaunita_George

11:52:01 [Jaunita_George]

meeting: AGWG-2022-06-10

11:52:11 [Jaunita_George]

chair: Jaunita George

11:52:49 [Jaunita_George]

agenda+ Review/edit consensus table (30 minutes)

11:52:59 [Jaunita_George]

Agenda+ Work on a more final single proposal (30 minutes)

11:53:15 [Jaunita_George]

Rrsagent, make logs world

11:53:46 [ShawnT]

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11:54:04 [ShawnT]

Is today the 8AM meeting?

11:54:20 [ShawnT]

Perfect, thank you

11:54:24 [ShawnT]

talk soon

11:54:48 [JF]

JF has joined #wcag3-protocols

11:54:54 [JF]

agenda?

11:55:02 [JF]

Present+

11:56:17 [Jaunita_George]

Present+

11:56:23 [Jaunita_George]

zakim, take up item 1

11:56:23 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Review/edit consensus table (30 minutes) -- taken up [from Jaunita_George]

11:56:43 [Jaunita_George]

Consensus Proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twjaSude_5-1VdpFKPX1Bw_hA09cIvyzeP1h8PowSxo/edit#

12:00:49 [MichaelC]

present+

12:00:50 [ShawnT]

What's the link to the Zoom?

12:01:30 [bruce_bailey]

bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-protocols

12:01:37 [bruce_bailey]

present+

12:01:51 [ShawnT]

Thanks

12:01:56 [bruce_bailey]

scribe:bruce_bailey

12:02:50 [Rachael]

present+

12:02:50 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: working on consensus protocols

12:03:37 [bruce_bailey]

JF: notes some issues with the display in Google Docs

12:04:02 [jeanne]

jeanne has joined #wcag3-protocols

12:04:09 [bruce_bailey]

JF: tip is to close editing view

12:05:23 [Jaunita_George]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twjaSude_5-1VdpFKPX1Bw_hA09cIvyzeP1h8PowSxo/edit#heading=h.a3wmgsst97aw

12:05:35 [bruce_bailey]

ShawnT notes some difficulty with Zoom link from Wiki page which MC will update

12:05:40 [ShawnT]

https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Protocols

12:05:48 [ShawnT]

https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/3c845aec-dab5-49c4-8294-86cc0d1b5aac/20220107T090000

12:06:34 [Poornima_]

Poornima_ has joined #wcag3-protocols

12:06:40 [ShawnT]

present+

12:06:44 [jeanne]

present+

12:06:44 [Jaunita_George]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twjaSude_5-1VdpFKPX1Bw_hA09cIvyzeP1h8PowSxo/edit#heading=h.a3wmgsst97aw

12:06:49 [Poornima_]

present+

12:07:26 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: at last meeting we noted a great deal of similarity between two sub groups...

12:07:48 [bruce_bailey]

... please edit or comment on combined document

12:07:58 [JF]

Q+

12:08:23 [bruce_bailey]

... differences we might be able to address as different tiers of work for protocols, to allow us something to bring to AGWG

12:09:00 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I don't agree that are so close, bullet with "created by anyone" seems problematic...

12:09:36 [jeanne]

q+

12:09:39 [bruce_bailey]

... this difference is significant, because protocols need to be vetted by authority, if not AGWG itself

12:09:48 [jeanne]

q-

12:10:06 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: Please open document, look for where we can combine...

12:10:28 [bruce_bailey]

... also a possibility to bring competing versions of section to AGWG

12:10:46 [bruce_bailey]

q?

12:11:30 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: Please take moment to open, let me know if problems reading.

12:11:56 [Jaunita_George]

ack jf

12:12:02 [bruce_bailey]

q+

12:12:17 [bruce_bailey]

q-

12:13:02 [bruce_bailey]

Bruce ask for help with lack of horizontonal scroll bar

12:13:07 [bruce_bailey]

q+

12:13:27 [bruce_bailey]

Bruce: using "pageless" feature

12:14:07 [Jaunita_George]

ack bruce_bailey

12:16:46 [bruce_bailey]

[Jeanne and Jaunita improve formatting]

12:17:04 [Jaunita_George]

q?

12:17:19 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: combined proposal is at bottom of document, so that can be focus for todays discussion

12:18:05 [Poornima_]

q+

12:19:02 [Jaunita_George]

ack Poornima_

12:20:14 [MichaelC]

q+

12:20:22 [MichaelC]

ack me

12:20:23 [bruce_bailey]

Doc has four columns, Topic, Points for Protocols, Evaluating Procedures, and Commonalities/Differences

12:20:25 [Jaunita_George]

ack MichaelC

12:20:43 [JF]

Q+

12:21:02 [jeanne]

+1 for one proposal with differences highlighted

12:21:03 [bruce_bailey]

Going through rows by topics, tabular presentation shows overlap

12:21:34 [bruce_bailey]

MC: We will want a single document for WGAG, not two, but calling out disagreements will be fine.

12:21:56 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I am still seeing fundamental differences...

12:22:14 [MichaelC]

q+

12:22:31 [bruce_bailey]

... one proposal is strict script for testing...

12:22:48 [MichaelC]

ack me

12:22:52 [Jaunita_George]

ack JF

12:22:59 [bruce_bailey]

... needs to be in different place in life cycle. The proposals are fundamental differences.

12:23:06 [JF]

Q+

12:23:39 [bruce_bailey]

MC: The evaluation protocol is NOT about evaluating after the fact...

12:24:01 [bruce_bailey]

... so I think we can separate where/timeline as a difference.

12:24:06 [jeanne]

q+ to add a new row of when the protocol is applied

12:24:13 [jeanne]

ack JF

12:24:50 [MichaelC]

q+ to note the requirements for protocols aspect

12:24:50 [bruce_bailey]

JF: One approach to protocols is just too loose. Use a pale blue background could be a protocol per one definition...

12:25:37 [Jaunita_George]

ack jeanne

12:25:37 [Zakim]

jeanne, you wanted to add a new row of when the protocol is applied

12:25:41 [MichaelC]

q-

12:25:52 [bruce_bailey]

... that is different than having a description on, for example cognitive, which is required reading before starting to develop content

12:26:10 [bruce_bailey]

JF: they are complementary but not the same

12:26:17 [Poornima_]

q+

12:26:46 [bruce_bailey]

Jeanne: I added row to table, so we can call out the "where/when" as its own question.

12:27:52 [Jaunita_George]

ack Poornima_

12:27:54 [bruce_bailey]

Poornima: I thing we can add an another column so as to highlight with AGWG who writes and who enforces protocol...

12:28:47 [bruce_bailey]

... we may need third party to validate protocols. I do see some contradictions between the approaches.

12:29:15 [bruce_bailey]

Jeanne: First row is who writes the protocol. Do we need more?

12:29:59 [bruce_bailey]

Poornima: I think it is that the titles of the protocols need to be determined by the AGWG.

12:30:13 [MichaelC]

q+

12:30:25 [bruce_bailey]

... we need a subgroup to determine the categories of protocols

12:30:49 [Jaunita_George]

ack MichaelC

12:31:53 [bruce_bailey]

MC: I added evaluating procedure to help with requirements which will help with confidence in protocols.

12:32:17 [bruce_bailey]

JF: Can MC provide some straw man protocols?

12:32:52 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I like PlainLanguage.gov as one which seems aligned with what we are thinking.

12:33:06 [JF]

Q+

12:33:33 [bruce_bailey]

MC: See what evaluation procedures, evidence, describe, [etc.]...

12:34:01 [bruce_bailey]

... proposal has what we are looking for, what level of rigor is needed ...

12:34:06 [bruce_bailey]

... we might add more

12:34:16 [bruce_bailey]

q+ to ask JF for his other example

12:34:22 [Jaunita_George]

ack JF

12:34:49 [bruce_bailey]

MC: AGWG is not going to be able to write out all the many protocols we will need for wcag3

12:35:12 [Jaunita_George]

ack bruce_bailey

12:35:12 [Zakim]

bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask JF for his other example

12:35:25 [bruce_bailey]

JF: Other example was "making content useable"

12:35:32 [Rachael]

https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/

12:36:15 [bruce_bailey]

JF: Proposals defines good enough but is still a fundamental difference

12:37:50 [bruce_bailey]

Rachael: Agrees that we want to capture the fundamental conflicts or differences in the report back to AGWG

12:38:00 [Jaunita_George]

q?

12:38:11 [jeanne]

q+ to

12:38:20 [jeanne]

q- to

12:38:34 [jeanne]

q+ to propose moving forward with what we have

12:39:02 [Jaunita_George]

ack jeanne

12:39:02 [Zakim]

jeanne, you wanted to propose moving forward with what we have

12:39:51 [Rachael]

q+

12:39:57 [bruce_bailey]

Jeanne: i think we got people recording their thoughts. If JF doesn't think the one-proposal report is practical, let us submit two...

12:40:03 [Jaunita_George]

ack Rachael

12:40:25 [bruce_bailey]

... and we could have a third which highlights similarity/differences

12:41:06 [bruce_bailey]

Rachael: Reminder of process -- should try to focus on question that could go to AGWG and then which results in PR

12:41:33 [bruce_bailey]

Jeanne: Could we do presentation before survey?

12:41:36 [Rachael]

June 21st?

12:41:55 [jeanne]

+1 to presentation then survey

12:42:06 [Poornima_]

+1

12:42:07 [Rachael]

+1

12:42:07 [Jaunita_George]

Draft resolution: Bring two proposals to AGWG with a table outlining the similarities and differences. This would be presented first to AGWG before questions are sent in a survey. Presentation would be on June 21st

12:42:08 [ShawnT]

+1

12:42:13 [JF]

+1

12:42:19 [MichaelC]

+1

12:42:22 [Jaunita_George]

+1

12:42:23 [jeanne]

+1

12:42:24 [ShawnT]

+1

12:42:36 [Rachael]

Can you present in 30 minutes? 10 minute overview, 10 minutes for each version?

12:42:47 [Jaunita_George]

RESOLUTION: Bring two proposals to AGWG with a table outlining the similarities and differences. This would be presented first to AGWG before questions are sent in a survey. Presentation would be on June 21st.

12:43:01 [jeanne]

+1 to 30 minutes

12:43:17 [jeanne]

+1 to single presenter

12:43:21 [bruce_bailey]

MC: Suggest single person giving presentation

12:43:28 [ShawnT]

+1

12:43:41 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I would prefer two speakers

12:44:13 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I would like to present the proposal which I have had lead with.

12:44:41 [Jaunita_George]

Agenda

12:44:46 [bruce_bailey]

Racheal: Okay with two people, but 30 minutes is cap.

12:45:01 [Jaunita_George]

Introduction to the work: Jaunita

12:45:12 [Jaunita_George]

Points for Protocol: John

12:45:14 [bruce_bailey]

q+ to suggest JF coach Jaunita

12:45:19 [Jaunita_George]

Evaluating Procedures: Jaunita

12:46:00 [bruce_bailey]

Bruce suggests JF coach Jaunita

12:46:21 [Jaunita_George]

ack bruce_bailey

12:46:21 [Zakim]

bruce_bailey, you wanted to suggest JF coach Jaunita

12:46:33 [Rachael]

q+

12:46:38 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I have concerns with notes and comparisons, so I have not been conveying concern

12:46:38 [Jaunita_George]

ack Rachael

12:47:11 [bruce_bailey]

Rachael: I support both proposals getting before AGWG

12:47:45 [bruce_bailey]

Rachael: slide approach would be better than doc, but needs more time

12:48:11 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita 21st date is election day, so that is no good

12:48:42 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita, I can get with John on a joint proposal.

12:49:18 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: We will work on summarizing table

12:49:21 [Jaunita_George]

q?

12:49:23 [bruce_bailey]

q+

12:49:30 [Jaunita_George]

ack bruce_bailey

12:50:20 [bruce_bailey]

bruce: thanks JF for being willing to work with Jaunita on joint presentation

12:50:38 [bruce_bailey]

JF: I agree I am not getting some of my concerns accross

12:51:03 [bruce_bailey]

Jeanne: i am also willing to help with slide deck

12:51:35 [Poornima_]

q+

12:51:42 [bruce_bailey]

Rachael: please invite chairs if we can help with process and review

12:51:42 [Jaunita_George]

ack Poornima_

12:52:03 [Rachael]

It can come back to this group two times before AG for discussion.

12:52:28 [bruce_bailey]

Poornima: I would like more opportunities to give feedback into doucment

12:52:54 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: We have a couple more meeting before the 28th date

12:53:18 [bruce_bailey]

MC: 28th date might not work for me

12:53:37 [Rachael]

+1 to speaker notes. Thank you both for tackling this

12:54:05 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: I will endeavor to have good speaker notes in the PPT/Google Slides speaker notes

12:54:54 [bruce_bailey]

MC: Please check Poornima on access to meetings

12:55:17 [bruce_bailey]

... Silver Community Group might not be the same as before

12:55:45 [Jaunita_George]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:55:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-wcag3-protocols-minutes.html Jaunita_George

12:55:46 [bruce_bailey]

Jaunita: We have a path forword.

12:56:29 [Rachael]

zakim, end meeing

12:56:29 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'end meeing', Rachael

12:57:00 [bruce_bailey]

zakim, end meeting

12:57:00 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been JF, Jaunita_George, MichaelC, bruce_bailey, Rachael, ShawnT, jeanne, Poornima_

12:57:02 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

12:57:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-wcag3-protocols-minutes.html Zakim

12:57:05 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, bruce_bailey; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

12:57:10 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wcag3-protocols