14:58:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:58:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-pbgsc-irc
14:58:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
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14:58:47 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:59:17 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Jun/0002.html
14:59:35 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #pbgsc
15:00:00 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #pbgsc
15:00:09 <dauwhe> present+
15:00:11 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/04/08-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 8 April
15:00:11 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:00:41 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:00:44 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:00:47 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pbgsc
15:00:55 <liisamk> present+
15:01:04 <Ralph> present+
15:01:14 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pbgsc
15:01:45 <Ralph> present+ Wolfgang, Tzviya, Liisa, WendyReid, Zheng, George, Avneesh
15:02:10 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pbgsc
15:03:08 <Ralph> scribe+
15:03:38 <Ralph> agenda+ Quick updates around the table
15:03:47 <Ralph> agenda+ Outcomes from the 8 June WG/CG joint meeting
15:03:56 <Ralph> agenda+ Discussion/Planning for "Web Digital Publishing futures" TPAC session
15:04:03 <Ralph> agenda+ EPUB 3 Titles for use as references [George]
15:04:06 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:04:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Quick updates around the table -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:04:16 <Ralph> Dave: EPUB 3 is in CR!!
15:04:21 <Ralph> Wendy: Yay!
15:04:46 <Ralph> Dave: we're working on security & privacy stuff now, after an academic paper was published
15:04:56 <Ralph> ... we invited the author of that paper to our WG meeting last week
15:05:03 <Ralph> Tzviya: it was really intersting
15:05:33 <Ralph> ... any announcement for WAI?  just a blog post?
15:05:58 <Ralph> Wendy: I fixed the tags; adding the ebook tag
15:06:39 <Ralph> Ralph: congratulations to the WG; the testing work is a huge contribution
15:06:55 <Ralph> Ivan: and it's not yet done; we need more testers to both write and run tests
15:07:00 <Ralph> ... there's documentation on how to do this
15:07:07 <Ralph> ... and also a slack channel
15:07:27 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests
15:07:32 <Ralph> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:07:43 <Ralph> Liisa: the BG has been struggling to find time to meet
15:07:54 <Ralph> ... the co-chairs have been traveling a lot
15:08:13 <Ralph> ... and trying to figure out what to communicate w.r.t. EAA
15:08:41 <Ralph> ... we're trying to get together the education community thing we had talked about
15:09:26 <Ralph> ... slow going at the moment
15:09:47 <Ralph> ... we are trying to get a meeting before the end of June
15:11:18 <Ralph> Tzviya: maybe we can try a joint meeting in the BG timeslot
15:11:23 <Ralph> ... could be on use cases
15:11:39 <Ralph> Liisa: I'd love to have a joint WG meeting to talk about FXL
15:12:23 <Ralph> ... piracy is also big on people's minds; we're hearing that people are spending a lot of time on that
15:12:35 <Ralph> Wendy: piracy is a hard problem
15:12:57 <Ralph> Liisa: there could be some idea sharing; there are things that can be done
15:13:06 <Ralph> Tzviya: sounds like a joint meeting with the CG
15:13:18 <Ralph> <ralph> +1
15:13:26 <wendyreid> q+
15:13:30 <Ralph> Liisa: I'll reach out to the CG and see if we can schedule a joint session
15:13:34 <wendyreid> q-
15:13:47 <Ralph> Zheng: the CG had a joint meeting with the WG
15:13:59 <Ralph> ... the topic naturally narrowed down to education and annotation
15:14:22 <Ralph> ... we also discussed an approach to how the CG can work with the WG to provide more use cases
15:14:31 <Ralph> ... and start to discover more practice
15:14:42 <Ralph> ... the CG has a lot of work to do
15:14:52 <Ralph> ... we look forward to a joint meeting with the BG
15:14:59 <Ralph> ... a lot of the CG is interested in FXL
15:15:12 <Ralph> ... feel free to reach out to us via the CG mailing list
15:15:24 <Ralph> ... we encourage peopel to throw questions in there
15:15:41 <Ralph> ... in terms of piracy, I have some ideas there too
15:16:06 <Ralph> Wolfgang: we started a TF lead by Paul Belfante to collect use cases for education
15:16:18 <Ralph> ... from people interested in education publishing
15:16:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:16:41 <Ralph> Wendy: a joint meeting with the FXL TF might be productive
15:16:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:16:49 <Ralph> ... we're trying to work on best practice documentation
15:17:17 <Ralph> ... it would be very helpful to know what best practice ideas would you like documented
15:17:33 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:17:33 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Outcomes from the 8 June WG/CG joint meeting -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:17:39 <Ralph> zakim, close this item
15:17:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
15:17:40 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:17:40 <Zakim> 3. Discussion/Planning for "Web Digital Publishing futures" TPAC session [from Ralph]
15:17:41 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:17:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Discussion/Planning for "Web Digital Publishing futures" TPAC session -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:17:58 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022May/0001.html Wendy's initial proposal
15:18:14 <Ralph> Wendy: we don't yet have a plan for what work needs to be done after the current WG ends
15:18:39 <Ralph> ... I thought it would be a good idea to hold something at TPAC to find out what people from the publishing industry need in the next generation of standards
15:18:50 <Ralph> ... I'm being intentionally vague; the idea is to come with problems and not solutions
15:18:50 <tzviya> q+ to talk brainstorm
15:19:07 <Ralph> ... focus on what problems people have now, what are their requirements for a digital publishing standard
15:19:22 <Ralph> ... involve publishers from all parts of publishing, including the various parts of trade publishing
15:19:33 <Ralph> ... include tool vendors, retailers, ...
15:19:42 <Ralph> ... make sure we include everybody and brainstorm together
15:19:55 <Ralph> ... whatever we do next should be cognizant of the various parts of the industry
15:20:04 <Ralph> ... talk about what people hope to get from the next generation of standards
15:20:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:20:16 <Ralph> ... and propose a charter that can get multi-stakeholder support
15:20:20 <tzviya> ack tz
15:20:20 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk brainstorm
15:20:25 <Ralph> ... we should be sending invitations very soon
15:20:43 <Ralph> Tzviya: we're envisioning a whiteboarding session in an accessible way
15:21:05 <Ralph> ... thinking back to how IDPF did things when we came to the close of specification work
15:21:17 <Ralph> ... what problems do we have with this spec?
15:21:28 <Ralph> ... a brain dump; we won't be able to work on everything everyone suggests
15:21:44 <Ralph> ... we want to get an idea of what people want though we may only work on 1 or 2 of them
15:22:01 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:22:04 <Ralph> ... we're trying to get the idea of what people's problems are and what we can come to consensus to work on
15:22:17 <Ralph> Bill: I love the idea
15:22:33 <Ralph> ... to get an appropriate cross-section of people, I'm very glad we're considering hybrid
15:22:41 <Ralph> ... it's an excellent recruiting opportunity
15:22:53 <Ralph> Tzviya: the invitations cannot be "so we want you to join W3C"
15:23:18 <Ralph> Bill: no; I'd draft specific people to join the conversation
15:23:50 <Ralph> ... I have a lot of contacts with people in various parts of publishing who might come to the discussion
15:23:58 <Ralph> ... I can identify good people in a variety of sectors
15:24:13 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:24:20 <Ralph> Ralph: +1 to make this as broad
15:24:34 <liisamk> +1 to the idea and to a broad conversation
15:24:52 <tzviya> q+ to ask about some logistics
15:25:50 <wolfgang> +1 to Wendy's idea to elicit more feedback from the whole range of the publishing business
15:26:11 <wendyreid> q+
15:26:15 <tzviya> ack me
15:26:15 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about some logistics
15:26:17 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:26:23 <Ralph> Tzviya: are we thinking 2 hours, 4 hours, 40 people? 100 People?
15:26:31 <Ralph> Wendy: 8 hours is too much; I'm thinking 2-4 hours
15:26:42 <Ralph> ... it depends on the number of people and how many might be remote
15:26:54 <Ralph> ... remote participation will add time
15:27:25 <liisamk> q+
15:27:47 <Ralph> ... maybe an introductory whiteboarding session where people dump everything they can think of, then a break, then group the ideas into concepts
15:27:55 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:28:00 <Ralph> ... there will be a lot of ideas that we'll have to distill
15:28:12 <Ralph> Liisa: I'd like to find a way to make the break useful to the remote participants
15:28:20 <Ralph> ... so it's not biased to the in-person attendees
15:28:34 <wolfgang> q+
15:28:35 <Ralph> <ralph> very strong +1 to engaging the remote participants
15:28:42 <Ralph> Tzviya: maybe we can do Zoom breakouts?
15:29:03 <Ralph> Wendy: I'm happy to facilitate and will lean on colleagues to help
15:29:04 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
15:29:09 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:29:15 <Ralph> Wolfgang: how will we deal with the timezone difference?
15:29:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> One of the people I would ask to join is in Estonia.
15:30:07 <tzviya> q+ cristina
15:30:42 <tzviya> q+ to talk about next steps
15:30:58 <Ralph> ... it's nine hours difference between Vancouver and Europe
15:31:02 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:31:25 <Ralph> Avneesh: I fear putting all eggs in one basket and the uncertainties of what might happen in September
15:31:44 <Ralph> ... Vancouver is challenging w.r.t. timezones
15:31:56 <cristina_> cristina_ has joined #pbgsc
15:32:08 <Ralph> ... if Bill has an idea of who to contact already, let's start the public engagement sessions before TPAC so we're not completely dependent on TPAC
15:32:14 <Ralph> ... that would also help solve the timezone issues
15:32:22 <cristina_> present+
15:32:24 <Ralph> ... one or two calls starting in July
15:32:31 <cristina_> q+
15:32:33 <Ralph> ... collect ideas and start to shape them before TPAC
15:32:36 <tzviya> ack cristina_
15:32:39 <Ralph> <Ralph> +1 to Avneesh as well
15:32:42 <tzviya> ack cristina
15:33:04 <Ralph> Cristina: it makes sense to duplicate sessions and define some well-structured topics that can be done twice
15:33:10 <Ralph> ... similar to a PBG meeting
15:33:20 <Ralph> ... allow people to participate in a more comfortable way
15:33:32 <Ralph> ... define in the Zoom room(s) specific topic to discuss
15:33:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: good points that we're putting too much value on the f2f meeting
15:33:56 <Ralph> ... people get excited about brainstorming together
15:34:07 <Ralph> ... but I like Avneesh' suggestion to start before TPAC
15:34:09 <liisamk> q+
15:34:19 <Ralph> ... maybe Wendy and I can start a document on what we're looking for
15:34:38 <Ralph> ... and maybe hold one session in July at an Asia-friendly time
15:34:47 <Ralph> ... perhaps another in August before TPAC
15:34:53 <GeorgeK> q+
15:34:55 <tzviya> ack tz
15:34:55 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about next steps
15:34:58 <tzviya> avk liisamk
15:35:02 <Ralph> Cristina: I was thinking about areas of discussion, not necessarily specific topics
15:35:19 <Ralph> Liisa: we could also use some of the PBG time this summer to start the conversation and get people thinking about gathering ideas
15:35:19 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
15:35:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:35:26 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:35:36 <Ralph> George: I like Avneesh' idea; could we have rotating chairs of the smaller meetings?
15:36:01 <Ralph> ... different people attract others with different ideas
15:36:07 <Ralph> ... not one person running all of them
15:36:12 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:36:38 <Ralph> Bill: the preliminary meetings are a great idea, but should not be solely for the participants of the current groups
15:37:05 <Ralph> ... most of the people I would invite are from other communities
15:37:16 <Ralph> ... and not necessarily candidates to join any of these groups
15:37:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: Wendy and I will write a draft
15:37:35 <Ralph> ... the sessions will be open to anyone
15:37:54 <Ralph> ./me q+
15:38:02 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:38:04 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:38:26 <wendyreid> Ralph: For event planning, we need some kind of estimate of what to ask for TPAC planning
15:39:07 <wendyreid> ... we might ask for no more than 2-2hour sessions for 20-25 people, if it's WG people plus others, the largest room is for 50 people
15:39:17 <wendyreid> ... if you want me to put in a bid for the largest room, I can try
15:39:46 <Ralph> Tzviya: if we're going to have two 1-1.5 hour sessions with a break inbetween, it would be nice to have that in one room
15:39:54 <Ralph> ... hard to know how many might attend
15:40:09 <Ralph> ... if it's the same day as the EPUB WG meeting, then I'd expect all of them to attend
15:40:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:40:36 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:40:44 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:41:03 <Ralph> Bill: the kinds of people I'd invite would be mostly remote
15:41:07 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:41:10 <Ralph> Avneesh: +1
15:42:06 <Ralph> Ralph: I was thinking that some of the people we'd like to participate will already be there for other TPAC meetings
15:42:19 <Ralph> Wendy: the same space we've asked for the WG is probably sufficient
15:42:30 <Ralph> ... maybe Tuesday morning as the WG is meeting in the afternoon
15:42:36 <Ralph> ... that would accomodate Europe
15:43:03 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:43:03 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- EPUB 3 Titles for use as references -- taken up [from George]
15:43:26 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Jun/0000.html EPUB 3 titles for use in marketing and testing
15:43:47 <Ralph> George: I was in a call on Monday talking about K12 and we wanted to point to some example EPUB documents
15:44:07 <Ralph> ... someone suggested some titles
15:44:21 <dauwhe> https://github.com/IDPF/epub3-samples
15:44:24 <Ralph> ... I've had the experience of large ebooks that crash some reading systems
15:44:42 <Ralph> ... I was thinking about books that stress reading systems, with a range of content
15:44:58 <Ralph> ... the industry needs such a place where they can find content they can use for testing, demonstration, and testing
15:45:12 <Ralph> Ivan: the EPUB tests are not the right thing for this
15:45:13 <wendyreid> q+
15:45:18 <dauwhe> q+
15:45:27 <Ralph> George: right; this is a CG thing where we build out a set of books people can use
15:45:33 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:45:42 <Ralph> Tzviya: perhaps take a look at the old epub sample library
15:46:07 <tzviya> s/library/library and update the files
15:46:09 <Ralph> Wendy: what parameters are we trying to test?  large books? what's "large"?  thousands of chapters in individual files or in one file?
15:46:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:46:26 <Ralph> ... write the test cases; are videos remote or embedded?  audio remote or embedded?
15:46:38 <Ralph> George: I have an immediate need
15:46:52 <Ralph> ... I think we could work with standardebook.org
15:47:02 <Ralph> ... make sure their book is up to snuff and push fixes
15:47:13 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:47:15 <Ralph> ... if we want to do something separate in the CG, I think that would be interesting
15:47:26 <Ralph> Dave: there is the EPUB3 sample repository ^^
15:47:32 <Ralph> ... with existing infrastructure
15:47:42 <Ralph> ... it probably has an old epubcheck
15:48:09 <Ralph> Zheng: I like the idea to have more EPUBs for demonstration, testing, and marketing
15:48:24 <Ralph> ... I'd like to find more examples to demonstrate my platform
15:48:53 <Ralph> ... I like the idea
15:49:03 <Ralph> ... we should create something everyone can use
15:49:19 <Ralph> George: can the CG set up the infrastructure?  that would be great
15:49:28 <Ralph> ... we can mark things as to when they are updated
15:49:35 <Ralph> ... and let people contribute
15:49:44 <tzviya> q?
15:49:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: who runs standardebook.org?
15:49:52 <tzviya> ack ra
15:49:54 <Ralph> Wendy: Alex K@@
15:50:06 <wendyreid> s/K@@/Cabal/
15:51:02 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:51:09 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm happy to assist in creating the backing store for this
15:51:21 <Ralph> Bill: it's a good idea; there are two use cases
15:51:26 <Ralph> ... 1. testing
15:51:34 <Ralph> ... 2. good examples of EPUB
15:51:43 <Ralph> ... we're talking about both, right?
15:51:54 <Ralph> George: and a 3rd; interesting content that will turn people on
15:52:07 <Ralph> Bill: yeah; "did you know you could do this with EPUB?"
15:52:33 <Ralph> Tzviya: something good for the CG to take up and anyone can contribute content
15:52:52 <Ralph> ... the books in the repository should be EPUB 3.1 and should be easy to update
15:53:03 <Ralph> ... there's a lot of demonstration of MathML that we might not want to show off yet
15:53:31 <Ralph> topic: Next meeting
15:53:46 <Ralph> Tzviya: I can't join you on 8 July
15:53:56 <Ralph> Liisa: how about 15 July?
15:54:15 <Ralph> Tzviya, Wendy: the 15th works better for me
15:54:26 <Ralph> action: Ralph (re)schedule the July SC meeting for 15 July
15:54:30 <Ralph> Ivan: likely regrets
15:54:36 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:54:48 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:54:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, wolfgang, AvneeshSingh, liisamk, Ralph, Tzviya, WendyReid, Zheng, George, Bill_Kasdorf, cristina_
15:54:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:54:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:54:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:54:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
16:13:51 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
16:14:16 <Ralph> present+ Ivan
18:01:40 <Ralph> action: Tzviya and Wendy write a draft TPAC publishing brainstorming session
18:46:02 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pbgsc
19:00:48 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
19:00:48 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
19:00:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph (re)schedule the July SC meeting for 15 July [1]
19:00:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-pbgsc-irc#T15-54-26
19:00:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tzviya and Wendy write a draft TPAC publishing brainstorming session [2]
19:00:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/06/10-pbgsc-irc#T18-01-40