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14:57:32 <Travis> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:57 <Travis> meeting: Web Editing WG Meeting, June 9th 2022
14:58:00 <Travis> present+
14:58:06 <johanneswilm> present+
14:58:11 <Travis> chair: johanneswilm
14:58:19 <Travis> scribe: Travis
14:58:24 <Travis> scribenick: tilgovi
14:58:28 <Travis> scribenick: Travis
14:59:18 <comandeer> present+
14:59:28 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
14:59:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
15:00:38 <Travis> present+ Wenson Hsieh
15:01:01 <Travis> Zakim: comandeer is Tomasz Jakut
15:02:11 <Travis> johanneswilm: time to start!
15:02:35 <Travis> .. I removed the Agenda label from items we discussed last month. If there's anything I did in error, let me know.
15:02:50 <Travis> .. One item on Virtual Keyboard issue 17.
15:03:07 <Travis> Topic: Locale Support
15:03:13 <Travis> github: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/17
15:04:06 <Travis> BoCupp: question: is there an attempt to change the keyboard language using attributes in the webpage?
15:04:30 <Travis> .. feedback from those who are multi-language?
15:04:35 <Travis> johanneswilm: I'm multi-language.
15:04:48 <Travis> .. super frustrating when keyboard doesn't change...
15:05:08 <Travis> BoCupp: There context there...it depends on where you're providing input?
15:05:18 <Travis> johanneswilm: yes, that's also true.
15:05:32 <Travis> BoCupp: Should we ask for clarifications?
15:05:42 <Travis> present+ BoCupp
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15:06:18 <Travis> johanneswilm: you can imagine textbox where you need to imput sweedish...
15:06:44 <Travis> .. annoying if you have to manually switch.
15:07:03 <Travis> .. would be nice if the text input with different langs would switch the keyboard automatically.
15:07:22 <Travis> wenson: I could see it being used as a hint to present the keyboard appropriate for the specified `lang` value, if the user has added it as an input method. But I can also see how it would be confusing
15:08:08 <Travis> johanneswilm: could there be a fingerprinting issue? If the site requests a language, and the keyboard has to change size to accommodate?
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15:08:35 <Travis> BoCupp: We do have some existing fingerprinting issues through (keyboard map?) where the key maps an input to an output...
15:08:47 <Travis> .. currently requires permission (prompt?)
15:08:54 <Travis> .. that's the current mitigation.
15:09:08 <Travis> .. keyboard event also has it...
15:09:15 <Travis> .. so I'm not worried too much about it.
15:09:33 <Travis> wenson: the fingerprinting vector is primarily the reason WebKit hasn't implemented the keybaord map.
15:09:56 <Travis> BoCupp: we got educated by the Office team on how keyboard shortcuts works...
15:10:12 <Travis> .. eg., ctrl+a, where 'a' is in a different place on the keyboard.
15:10:23 <Travis> .. can change depending on keyboard map.
15:11:20 <Travis> .. on different keyboards you might get a scan code for 'q' from a key on upper-left corner.
15:11:44 <Travis> .. but that physical key location always has the same scan code (may have a different key label).
15:12:32 <Travis> .. so the OS has to interpret the scan-code to determine the map of where the actual character is.
15:13:04 <Travis> .. so, for Ctrl+A the key depends.
15:13:21 <Travis> wenson: I ack that the use case is useful, but the JS is not the only place for a solution.
15:14:07 <Travis> johanneswilm: even though textfield needs german... 'z' and 'y' are switched. Often users mix these out. Some users have a preference for which they like.
15:14:36 <Travis> .. if the keyboard auto-switches, that might be frustrating for these people.
15:14:58 <Travis> .. we can't reliably tell which keyboard layout should be applied.
15:15:12 <Travis> BoCupp: propose we seek more info around.
15:16:00 <Travis> .. I'll note a few points in the issue.
15:16:39 <Travis> .. Separately, I might ask the person who educated me (from Office) to come and speak to us? If it might be of help to the group?
15:17:08 <johanneswilm> johannes: even if website communicates language, there are multiple correspondign keyboard layouts
15:17:10 <Travis> .. from their perspective (from a web author) "what should I do to see if the user has invoked one of my shortcuts"
15:17:19 <Travis> whsieh: I suppose we could consider it.
15:17:52 <Travis> .. last discussion was with garyk. That was a while ago.
15:18:04 <Travis> .. I'd be OK to hearing from word/ a productivity app.
15:18:12 <Travis> Zakim: Wenson is whsieh
15:18:38 <Travis> johanneswilm: Note, in some languages keyboard shortcuts are different depending on language.
15:18:58 <Travis> .. in Spanish, Ctrl+N (for Ctrl+B)--bold.
15:19:06 <Travis> .. but is different otherwise.
15:19:21 <Travis> .. in other languages.
15:19:38 <Travis> .. Ctrl+N has an interesting history.
15:20:00 <Travis> Topic: Interop 2022
15:20:19 <Travis> johanneswilm: They are meeting monthly (a week after this meeting).
15:20:26 <Travis> .. mainly for browser developers...
15:20:35 <Travis> .. the rest are not excluded (we can work on tests)
15:20:43 <Travis> .. but are interested in having folks like Apple there.
15:20:53 <Travis> .. Want to know "where are the difficulties"
15:21:19 <Travis> .. (meetings for Interop2022 are 3rd Thursday of the month)
15:21:56 <Travis> .. particularly no one from Apple was there, and their presence was requested :)
15:22:05 <Travis> .. 😃
15:22:32 <Travis> Topic: Two announcements
15:22:39 <Travis> BoCupp: on the clipboard.
15:22:49 <Travis> .. there's a PR for the Web Clipboard
15:22:54 <Travis> .. as discussed previously.
15:23:14 <Travis> .. sent out on blink-dev and got the 3 LGTMs...
15:23:18 <Travis> .. tests are updated.
15:23:25 <Travis> .. we updated the model in the spec
15:23:48 <Travis> .. went over the details of how to read the clipboard... making progress and we want to land it soon.
15:24:17 <BoCupp> present+
15:24:19 <BoCupp> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/175
15:24:54 <Travis> bo: second announcement: update to highlight API.
15:24:59 <Travis> .. plan to ship very soon.
15:25:14 <Travis> .. in that case, I think webkit already has a behind-a-flag impl.
15:25:25 <Travis> .. whsieh, when will the flag come off?
15:25:44 <Travis> megan: it's a combination of the spec getting fixed + having time to do the wokr.
15:26:06 <Travis> whsieh: Also I want to see the events for highlights...
15:26:14 <Travis> BoCupp: Oh, that part was split out (to v2)
15:26:26 <Travis> whsieh: Super. Yes, the flag is there and can be enabled.
15:26:35 <Travis> present+ Megan (Apple)
15:27:15 <Travis> BoCupp: there was a plan to limit to same-origin... was there other changes?
15:27:33 <Travis> .. e.g., will you throw typeError if an unknown format is requested?
15:27:40 <Travis> .. other things to add.
15:27:52 <Travis> whsieh: one missing piece is support for custom formats (in general).
15:27:59 <Travis> .. (support in WebKit)
15:28:09 <Travis> .. yes, we currently throw if unknown format.
15:28:19 <Travis> .. then we need to add support for the web-prefix.
15:28:30 <Travis> BoCupp: Beyond png, etc. what's the change?
15:29:01 <Travis> whsieh: If the website (same website) writes "foo" type and reads it back "foo", then it should be allowed (same site)
15:29:34 <Travis> BoCupp: we were thinking that case would still go into the pickle jar with web-prefix. Would you like to support w/out the web-prefix?
15:29:38 <Travis> .. if so why?
15:30:12 <Travis> .. I thought we settled on just telling the author which source you're trying to read from? If pickled source, then use the web-prefix to read from the web custom format container.
15:30:25 <Travis> whsieh: then my two items are just one: read from the web-prefix
15:30:31 <Travis> BoCupp: when can I see it?
15:30:52 <Travis> whsieh: you know the line--can't comment on future plans.
15:31:17 <Travis> Topic: More clipboard stuff
15:31:29 <Travis> BoCupp: Some areas MS is likely to focus on next in the clipboard space.
15:31:47 <Travis> .. 1) difficulty of discovering support for the web-prefix (feature detection for web custom formats)
15:32:25 <Travis> .. 2) New capabilities are tied to async clipboard, but that doesn't describe how to transfer files through copy/paste.
15:32:41 <Travis> ..  currently accessible through dataTransfer (kind 'file').
15:33:16 <Travis> .. we noted in Safari that one scenario where multiple clipboard items are produced is when files are coming in from the Shell.
15:33:18 <Travis> whsieh: correct.
15:33:49 <Travis> whsieh: that's how the system pasteboard works... has compatibility hacks though.
15:34:14 <Travis> BoCupp: we'd like to get an interp pattern specified (e.g., on MacOS)
15:34:25 <Travis> .. would love to explore how this could work.
15:34:40 <Travis> .. (explains thoughts on how it might work?)
15:35:25 <Travis> whsieh: preferred-presentation flag is there to help clarify the intent.
15:35:38 <Travis> BoCupp: This is an area we want to specify.
15:36:09 <Travis> .. 3) intern starting work on "delayed rendering of the clipboard"
15:36:16 <Travis> .. current clipboard supports promises...
15:36:38 <Travis> .. but the dev still needs to wait to write to the clipboard (until the promises are resolved)
15:36:54 <Travis> .. if author is waiting on network, etc.
15:37:22 <Travis> .. But w/delayed write, you can say that the data is going to be available upon request.
15:37:30 <Travis> .. you can do this right away.
15:38:04 <Travis> .. then if the user switches tabs (or similar) and is ready to paste, the app can show a "waiting" and get the data at that point.
15:38:35 <Travis> .. another scenario where the paste requires a round-trip to the server, costs can be deferred (or omitted) if no paste occurs.
15:38:45 <Travis> .. these are motives for looking into that.
15:39:21 <Travis> 4) History/roaming of controls--specifcially around opting-out of roaming the clipboard contents
15:39:42 <Travis> .. (in Windows, Win+C/Win+V has multiple clipboard items that can get roamed).
15:40:03 <Travis> .. some things (like passwords) probably shouldn't be put on the shared clipboard?
15:40:31 <Travis> whsieh: No platform equiv for clipboard history in Coco. There are extensions for it though.
15:41:05 <Travis> .. Apple "continuity" allows copy on one device, paste on another. We have similar scenarios around wanting to omit some data.
15:41:16 <Travis> .. so we could look into that.
15:42:30 <Travis> whsieh: Summarize: need to work on web-prefix, Supports, and delayed rendering in that order.
15:42:53 <Travis> johanneswilm: Any other topics?
15:43:42 <Travis> RRSAgent publish the minutes
15:43:54 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
15:43:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
15:44:56 <BoCupp> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2022-editing/issues/1
15:45:48 <Travis> s/wenson/whsieh
15:48:33 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
15:48:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
15:55:10 <Travis> s/wenson/whsieh/g
15:55:40 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
15:55:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
16:00:04 <Travis> scribe- tilgovi
16:00:57 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
16:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
16:03:10 <Travis> s/Zakim:/\Zakim:/g
16:03:47 <Travis> s/bo:/BoCupp:/g
16:04:27 <Travis> zakim, end the meeting
16:04:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Travis, johanneswilm, comandeer, Wenson, Hsieh, BoCupp, Megan, (Apple)
16:04:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:04:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Zakim
16:04:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Travis; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:04:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #editing
16:06:31 <Travis> s/(Apple)//g
16:06:51 <Travis> s/Hsieh//g
16:07:08 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
16:07:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
16:10:17 <Travis> s/tilgovi, //g
16:10:29 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
16:10:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
16:12:30 <Travis> s/tilgovi/Travis/g
16:14:11 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
16:14:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/09-editing-minutes.html Travis
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