16:02:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-scoping
16:02:36 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/08-wcag3-scoping-irc
16:02:44 <mbgower> present+
16:02:50 <Rachael> present+
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16:03:08 <Rachael> objective vs subjective document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vLuxeNwdgkSS0wenjAcm9eQlYMSGtwCHP125QYbSOKI/edit#gid=0
16:03:15 <thbrunet> present+
16:03:18 <jspellman> Present+
16:03:36 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #wcag3-scoping
16:03:43 <Rachael> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Scoping
16:04:11 <Wilco_> Wilco_ has joined #wcag3-scoping
16:05:55 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
16:06:00 <Rachael> reviewed wiki page
16:10:57 <Rachael> Jenne is referring to https://www.notion.so/nomensa/633121a1bcc94120833db2df302d8794?v=818fb138d19f42648d6d784ca90de239
16:11:06 <Rachael> s/Jenne/Jeanne
16:16:39 <Wilco_> q+
16:19:40 <Wilco_> q+ to ask about creating an example outcome
16:19:43 <Rachael> mbgower: walks through work to date.
16:20:24 <Rachael> Jeanne: Test reliability is trying to make outcomes more precise than WCAG 2 SC. Currently  testing out process.
16:21:57 <mbgower> q?
16:22:37 <Rachael> mbgower: Is what we are doing redundant with test reliability group?
16:22:53 <Rachael> Jeanne: Trying to avoid contradictory work.
16:23:03 <Rachael> ..already know they could be more objective.
16:23:25 <Rachael> mbgower: There is not a lot of agreement that current SC are not objective.
16:23:27 <Rachael> q+
16:25:11 <Rachael> Rachael: I think there is value in showing that the current guidelines have a certain level of subjectivity
16:25:13 <Rachael> q-
16:25:27 <Wilco_> inter-rater reliability
16:25:34 <Rachael> Some people think objective = high inter-rater reliability
16:25:48 <Rachael> ...may be a definition problem.
16:26:18 <Rachael> also inner-reater reliability. Same person gets same result. Inter-rater reliability = many people test and all get the same result
16:26:22 <mbgower> inner-rater reliability = can the same person get the same result (do the same thing)
16:26:27 <Rachael> ...we mean objective as is there any judgement call.
16:26:41 <thbrunet> I think it's intra-rater rather than inner-rater.
16:26:52 <Rachael> s/inner-rater/intra-rater
16:27:09 <Francis_Storr> this reminds me of the Challenges with Accessibility Guidelines Conformance and Testing, and Approaches for Mitigating Them document: https://www.w3.org/TR/accessibility-conformance-challenges/
16:28:28 <Wilco_> -1
16:29:08 <Rachael> q+
16:29:42 <Rachael> q-
16:29:52 <Rachael> Rachael: can we get a list of agreed upon terms for these conversations
16:30:21 <Rachael> Michael adds problem statement
16:30:24 <mbgower> We lack defined terms for discussing testing concepts, which makes it difficult for us to all be talking about the same thing – or agreeing we are.
16:30:53 <Rachael> Jeanne suggests we go back to look at research from research development working group, symposium summary paper
16:31:25 <Rachael> Jeanne to provide link
16:32:33 <Francis_Storr> Reminds me of this information architecture article on defining things: https://abbycovert.com/writing/what-do-we-mean/ I'll dig through that and see what might be useful.
16:34:58 <Rachael> thbrunet: There are 3 things: 1. Completely objective, automatable. 2. Well defined through human intervention 3. Human interpretation
16:38:07 <Rachael> Rachael: Also maybe 4) implied (audio description has good timing, accessible name is a good name
16:38:49 <jspellman> https://www.w3.org/TR/accessibility-metrics-report/
16:40:17 <jspellman> Web Accessibility Metrics Symposium-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2011/metrics/
16:41:27 <Rachael> mbgower: Trying for a quick exercise to help move along work
16:41:33 <Rachael> wilco: May be test reliability more than this
16:41:57 <Rachael> q+
16:44:00 <Rachael> q-
16:45:24 <Rachael> Rachael: Maybe review and revise the categorization content, Maybe write visible controls, need to work on terminology (both definitions and also for test types and scoping)
16:45:35 <Rachael> Wilco - test reliability may be able to take test terminology work.
16:47:57 <Rachael> https://www.notion.so/nomensa/633121a1bcc94120833db2df302d8794?v=818fb138d19f42648d6d784ca90de239
16:50:34 <Rachael> mbgower: Focus on a better set of terms.
16:54:06 <Rachael> testing concepts (objective, inter-rater reliability, etc) and test matrix terminology
16:56:52 <Wilco_> https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1sugAtqie_x1XqHDZo1Im7ftDNllWeRV_ty4PULeoTV0/edit#heading=h.q6kvhdps0qv4
16:59:50 <Rachael> mbgower will continue to work on exercise as a double check to migration.
17:01:00 <Rachael> zakim, generate minutes
17:01:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', Rachael
17:01:04 <Rachael> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/08-wcag3-scoping-minutes.html Rachael
17:01:18 <Rachael> zakim, make logs world
17:01:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs world', Rachael
17:01:44 <Rachael> zakim, make log world
17:01:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log world', Rachael
17:01:58 <jspellman> RRSAgent, make logs world
17:01:59 <Rachael> rrsagent, make log world
17:02:15 <Rachael> zakim, end meeting
17:02:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mbgower, Rachael, thbrunet, jspellman
17:02:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/08-wcag3-scoping-minutes.html Zakim
17:02:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Rachael; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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