IRC log of w3process on 2022-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #w3process
14:04:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:04:45 [plh]
present=fantasai, wseltzer , jrosewell , plh, florian
14:04:53 [plh]
regrets+ Jeff
14:05:02 [plh]
regrets+ Chris
14:06:40 [wseltzer]
14:06:49 [wseltzer]
plh: this will be a short meeting, I promise
14:06:57 [wseltzer]
zakim, give meeting 20 minutes
14:06:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'give meeting 20 minutes', wseltzer
14:06:59 [fantasai]
famous last words
14:07:04 [plh]
agenda+ Goals and timeline for upcoming Process: Work for the next 9 months.
14:07:04 [plh]
agenda+ 4 Pull requests: Let's approve pull requests within 2 weeks
14:07:04 [plh]
agenda+ Director-Free Formal Objection handling: Status & next steps.
14:07:04 [plh]
agenda+ Director-Free TAG appointment: Status & next steps.
14:07:05 [plh]
agenda+ Director-Free Chartering and pre-AC review: Status & next steps.
14:07:05 [plh]
agenda+ P2022 to close: restarting the closures.
14:07:07 [plh]
agenda+ P2022 issues list.
14:07:09 [plh]
agenda+ Next meeting: June 22.
14:07:11 [plh]
agenda+ Any other business.
14:07:16 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:07:17 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Goals and timeline for upcoming Process: Work for the next 9 months. -- taken up [from plh]
14:07:48 [wseltzer]
plh: Fantasai and I are your new chairs, welcome back
14:08:10 [wseltzer]
... we have no fires
14:08:26 [wseltzer]
... but we should set goals for the next 9mo
14:08:41 [wseltzer]
... a few edits that have been approved and merged
14:08:57 [plh]
--> Change log
14:09:04 [wseltzer]
... nothing that requires shipping a process update urgently
14:09:22 [wseltzer]
... mainly continued prep for post-Director
14:10:02 [wseltzer]
... Don't think we're on-track to ship a process in September
14:10:18 [wseltzer]
... and as there are no significant substantive changes
14:10:38 [wseltzer]
... We could get Dir-Free by Q1/Q2 2023
14:10:52 [wseltzer]
... need we ship a Process before then? I don't think so
14:10:59 [wseltzer]
<wseltzer> +1
14:11:05 [wseltzer]
florian: agree
14:11:22 [wseltzer]
... git would permit us to ship one while working on another in branch
14:11:38 [wseltzer]
... but don't think it's worth the pause we've seen in the past
14:12:06 [wseltzer]
fantasai: the pause was combo of explanation and exhaustion. don't think that's necessary here
14:12:09 [wseltzer]
14:12:14 [plh]
ack ws
14:12:24 [fantasai]
wseltzer: I think we should explicitly choose to wait until DF to update
14:12:24 [plh]
wseltzer: let's wait until we have Director-Free
14:12:34 [wseltzer]
14:12:51 [florian]
14:13:05 [wseltzer]
plh: I think, unless someone comes with something critical, focus on Q1-Q2 Dir-Free release
14:13:20 [wseltzer]
... by moving things one by one from Dir-Free branch to main
14:13:30 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:13:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- 4 Pull requests: Let's approve pull requests within 2 weeks -- taken up [from plh]
14:13:59 [wseltzer]
plh: PRs. Not looking for approval today, but heads-up that we'll ask for decision in 2 weeks
14:14:04 [wseltzer]
... 2 PRs on the same issue
14:14:20 [wseltzer]
... from wseltzer, florian
14:14:37 [wseltzer]
florian: as mine preceded Wendy's, which has PSIG review
14:14:44 [wseltzer]
... if people like Wendy's, take it
14:14:50 [wseltzer]
fantasai: but Nigel pointed out problems
14:15:31 [wseltzer]
action: wseltzer to re-review 572 and Nigel's comments
14:15:40 [wseltzer]
14:15:57 [wseltzer]
action: everyone fix the process
14:16:26 [wseltzer]
plh: if there are other things in 572, do a distinct PR
14:16:33 [wseltzer]
... Wendy, tell us how to move forward
14:16:48 [fantasai]
florian: the additional changes in 572 are part of the same thing, just touching more of the surrounding text
14:16:59 [fantasai]
14:16:59 [wseltzer]
plh: 602 is simple clarification of how we announce charter extensions to AC
14:17:52 [wseltzer]
florian: can we just approve this?
14:17:56 [wseltzer]
... it's trivial
14:18:00 [wseltzer]
wseltzer: +1
14:18:23 [wseltzer]
plh: let's merge 602
14:18:32 [wseltzer]
14:18:36 [wseltzer]
plh: 586
14:18:53 [wseltzer]
14:19:08 [wseltzer]
florian: this is one from Dir-Free
14:19:21 [wseltzer]
... when a doc is making progress on rec track, there are things team should check
14:19:49 [wseltzer]
... currently, it's marked the Director is supposed to do, but should be done by team
14:19:58 [wseltzer]
... not decision responsibility but verification
14:20:09 [wseltzer]
... it's starting from WG decision
14:20:38 [wseltzer]
... and the possibility of AC review if something goes wrong
14:20:49 [wseltzer]
... so it should be easy to replace Dir with Team
14:21:00 [wseltzer]
plh: and a should became must
14:21:07 [wseltzer]
plh: people SHOULD look at it
14:21:14 [wseltzer]
... in 2 weeks, I'll ask if merge
14:21:21 [plh]
ack fan
14:21:27 [fantasai]
14:21:39 [wseltzer]
fantasai: I agree with changes. see Leonie's comment
14:21:59 [wseltzer]
... that team should document exceptions
14:22:09 [wseltzer]
... should address either in this PR or elsewhere
14:22:17 [wseltzer]
florian: I'll add something
14:22:40 [wseltzer]
plh: I'll want to make sure Ralph sees the update
14:23:02 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:23:02 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Director-Free Formal Objection handling: Status & next steps. -- taken up [from plh]
14:23:39 [wseltzer]
plh: FOs
14:23:55 [wseltzer]
florian: we have a description of Council in DF branch
14:24:21 [wseltzer]
... not completely up-to-date with experimental process, esp wrt dismissal/recusal
14:24:42 [wseltzer]
... we also need to review
14:25:14 [plh]
--> W3M-AB Formal Objection Planning
14:25:33 [wseltzer]
plh: I came up with this draft ^
14:25:39 [wseltzer]
... steps and who's responsible
14:25:55 [wseltzer]
... check its alignment with DF
14:26:12 [wseltzer]
florian: I expect most of that detail would go in to /Guide
14:26:24 [wseltzer]
plh: agree. mostly check for consistency
14:27:42 [wseltzer]
... and there's more work to be done around dismissal
14:27:45 [wseltzer]
florian: not stable yet
14:28:22 [wseltzer]
plh: I'll ask Ralph to join us next meeting, as he's been Council team contact
14:29:02 [wseltzer]
florian: a nit, Member Submission appea
14:29:08 [wseltzer]
... we should fold into the same process
14:29:11 [wseltzer]
14:29:32 [wseltzer]
florian: and detail about what's public when
14:30:09 [wseltzer]
... also group decision appeal. similar to FO, but not quite
14:30:11 [fantasai]
s/same process/same process once we have the Council, currently says for technical things go to TAG and for process things go to AB/
14:30:31 [plh]
14:30:58 [wseltzer]
plh: timing
14:31:18 [wseltzer]
... right now Dir can decide whether to address when objection is brought or at transition time
14:31:30 [wseltzer]
... who addresses when to address? give Council the option?
14:31:57 [wseltzer]
florian: timer starts when objection is filed. team has some time to review, ...
14:32:04 [wseltzer]
plh: bad side effect
14:32:32 [wseltzer]
... e.g. I have groups who have FO on record, who haven't sent transition request
14:32:42 [wseltzer]
florian: start a new issue
14:33:25 [wseltzer]
fantasai: people shouldn't be able to escalate to council at non-transition time unless at least formal decision to which they object, or long-standing (year-long) issue ignored
14:34:13 [wseltzer]
... you shouldn't be able to go to council on e.g. an editor's choice
14:34:24 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:34:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Director-Free TAG appointment: Status & next steps. -- taken up [from plh]
14:34:41 [fantasai]
s/choice/choice that has not yet been escalated to the WG/
14:35:09 [wseltzer]
florian: we had a complete proposal, we haven't touched it in a long time, probably need to simplify
14:35:30 [wseltzer]
... how should we proceed?
14:36:05 [wseltzer]
fantasai: think we should file an issue with AB
14:36:10 [wseltzer]
... w high level overview
14:37:09 [wseltzer]
plh: let's review proposal next time
14:37:15 [wseltzer]
florian: I can proceed in parallel
14:37:22 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:37:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Director-Free Chartering and pre-AC review: Status & next steps. -- taken up [from plh]
14:37:56 [wseltzer]
florian: DF branch just replaces Dir with Team
14:38:01 [wseltzer]
... some people feel it's insufficient
14:38:19 [wseltzer]
... and want more member role/transparency/mgt
14:38:45 [wseltzer]
... should we do 2 steps or 1?
14:39:08 [wseltzer]
plh: 2 steps. let's land what we have and then recognize we need to do better
14:39:13 [wseltzer]
florian: I'm fine with it
14:39:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: but some people not here have indicated being uncomfortable with that
14:39:53 [fantasai]
14:40:03 [fantasai]
plh: who will work on this, wendy?
14:40:21 [fantasai]
wseltzer: would rather not...
14:40:30 [wseltzer]
s/wseltzer: would rather not...//
14:40:56 [dsinger]
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14:40:57 [fantasai]
[discussion of florian making a PR of the minimal changes]
14:41:09 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:41:09 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- P2022 to close: restarting the closures. -- taken up [from plh]
14:41:31 [wseltzer]
plh: florian and david spent lots of time on issue triage
14:41:39 [wseltzer]
... reminder, we'll do some issue closure
14:41:42 [florian]
14:41:43 [wseltzer]
... on upcoming calls
14:42:13 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:42:13 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- P2022 issues list. -- taken up [from plh]
14:42:57 [wseltzer]
plh: if you have issues that aren't on this list, please make sure you speak up
14:43:06 [wseltzer]
... or if you believe issues should be dropped,
14:43:23 [wseltzer]
florian: this isn't list of everything that must be fixed
14:43:38 [wseltzer]
... it's a signal of things we'll probably try to solve
14:43:59 [wseltzer]
plh: if you want issues to be on the list, chairs will be looking for volunteers.
14:44:04 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:44:04 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- Next meeting: June 22. -- taken up [from plh]
14:44:52 [wseltzer]
plh: btw, we should expect to share progress at TPAC
14:45:24 [wseltzer]
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