13:55:12 RRSAgent has joined #coga 13:55:12 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/19-coga-irc 13:55:14 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:55:17 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 13:55:17 Date: 19 May 2022 13:55:37 regrets: many people can not make it because of GAAD 13:56:16 agenda+ actions 13:57:02 agenda +m FAST funtional needs . see: From FAST In https://w3c.github.io/fast/#cognitive ; our notes at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit?usp=sharing , 13:57:13 clear agenda 13:57:36 agenda+ actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit# 13:58:05 agenda+ ICCHP https://www.icchp-aaate.org/ 13:58:33 agenda + FAST functional needs . see: From FAST In https://w3c.github.io/fast/#cognitive ; our notes at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit?usp=sharing , 13:59:39 note there is no subgroup meeting becuse of gadd 13:59:55 Rain has joined #coga 14:01:11 agenda? 14:01:18 present+ 14:02:04 scribe: rain 14:02:13 Becca_Monteleone has joined #coga 14:02:34 present+ Becca_Monteleone Le 14:02:38 present+ 14:02:46 ShawnT has joined #coga 14:02:49 present+ Roy ShawnT 14:02:59 .me thanks Rain 14:03:06 zakim, take up itme 2 14:03:06 I don't understand 'take up itme 2', Lisa 14:03:10 zakim, take up item 2 14:03:10 agendum 2 -- ICCHP https://www.icchp-aaate.org/ -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:03:17 zakim, take up item 2 14:03:18 agendum 2 -- ICCHP https://www.icchp-aaate.org/ -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:03:49 Lisa: thinking of having ICCHP being a face to face 14:03:53 MichaelC has joined #coga 14:03:59 present+ kirkwood 14:04:21 Lisa: not sure if Lisa will be attending 14:04:23 q? 14:04:29 present+ 14:04:43 will do 14:04:55 scribe: kirkwood 14:05:34 julierawe_ has joined #coga 14:05:37 present+ 14:05:43 Rain: program is set we have a room. sent out an email to task force and will do again once program is more flushed out. about virtual versus in person 14:06:10 … 2 session friday July 15 last day is W3C related stuff on that day 14:06:25 … first a project meeting about research in mental health space 14:06:43 … two puproses to find out about things we dont know about 14:06:49 second is recruiting 14:07:18 and second session is an educational session on making content usable. anyone can copresent in task force it would like 14:07:38 … we would like COGA task force feels like a group effort 14:07:52 … we also have a small room tuesday july 12th for upto 14 people 14:08:09 … need to decide today for them to announce a face to face 14:09:07 … task force members on that day as a hybrid for anyone attending in room. Google will be a cosposor with reasonable attendance to have screens to include virtually as best as possible. equally a part of conversation 14:09:20 q+ 14:09:21 … the room we have no matter what. 14:09:30 scribe: rain 14:10:00 Lisa: can definitely attend virtually, and we have the space to do that 14:10:09 I couild attend virtaully as well 14:10:13 ... let's check if people want to have a face to face on July 12 (hybrid) 14:10:27 +1 virtual 14:10:32 EA has joined #coga 14:10:42 do you want a FTF at icchp on july 12th - will be hybrid. 14:10:51 +1 virtual 14:11:00 kirkwood: clarify that FTF means hybrid virtual and in person 14:11:03 +1 to F 2 F virtual 14:11:17 +1 virtual or hybrid 14:11:32 +1 to hybrid (will be in person, will support virtual attendance) 14:11:46 Lisa: if you object, put in -1. If you need more time to think, put in 0 14:11:51 E.A. +1 to hybrid (will be in person, will support virtual attendance) 14:11:55 0 14:12:28 julierawe_: mainly not sure if I can come, but think it's great to try to make this happen 14:12:34 Lisa: would you be able to call in? 14:12:38 julierawe_: most likely, yes 14:12:46 any objections 14:13:20 Can I change my vote to +1? I misunderstood what "0" meant, thanks! 14:13:24 I'll see folks at TPAC!!!! 14:13:28 +1 14:13:49 Lisa: confirmed that we will have a face to face (even though short notice) 14:13:56 ... will be hybrid, both in person and virtual 14:14:05 If the flight is on time! 14:14:06 ... will have at least three people in the room (EA, Rain, David) 14:14:36 resolution: FTF at icchp on july 12th - will be hybrid. 14:14:41 Oh my goodness - all day - sorry I can only manage after 1pm at best 14:14:55 1pm Italy time! 14:15:20 Lisa: start after lunch so that we can make it more comfortable, especially given EAs schedule 14:15:32 ... may have different sections at different times 14:15:39 ... will make sure to schedule breaks! 14:15:59 Lisa: we also are intending to meet at TPAC, will be a hybrid 14:16:00 q? 14:16:05 ack Rain 14:16:05 Rain, you wanted to ask about research repository (off topic) 14:16:17 ack Roy 14:16:25 ack next 14:16:42 https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#GeneralMeetings 14:16:55 Roy: mention that want to have W3C formal face to face meeting, will want to follow the content above 14:16:56 https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/hosting.html 14:17:34 ... guidebook (link above) will help with making sure that we do this correctly 14:17:47 ... will also need to update a wikipage to show the important information for the FTF 14:17:51 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Meetings/Jan_2019 14:18:00 ... can refer to last FTF meeting page to help with this 14:18:42 Lisa: we have already provisionally let Janina and Rachael know this on the coordination call, and they thought we were okay 14:19:19 Q? 14:19:34 present + 14:20:06 Rain: thank you Roy for the guidance, and we are following up with APA and AG chairs following up 14:20:29 Lisa: will also send an email letting the group know that we have this resolved and will get the preliminary agenda up in the next week or two 14:20:53 Lisa: can we use this zoom room? 14:20:55 Roy: yes 14:21:42 Q? 14:21:47 Lisa: putting an agenda item to send the resolution to the list 14:21:55 close item 2 14:22:08 zakim, take up item 3 14:22:09 agendum 3 -- FAST functional needs . see: From FAST In https://w3c.github.io/fast/#cognitive ; our notes at 14:22:09 ... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit?usp=sharing , -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:22:12 q+ 14:22:27 ack next 14:22:38 Yes 14:22:45 I can scribe 14:22:49 scribe: EA 14:23:36 Lisa is sharing her screen to show fill people in on what we are doing 14:24:22 We moved the taskforce from AG to APA recently 14:24:44 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Functional_Needs_sub-group 14:24:54 She has AGs work to functional needs 14:25:04 mapped to functional needs 14:25:54 q+ 14:26:01 Lisa feels the document could be important as this could be used inside the W3C - does not want coga to be misrepresented. 14:26:15 q- 14:26:24 https://w3c.github.io/fast/#introduction 14:26:29 q? 14:27:12 q+ 14:27:34 ack next 14:27:44 EA asked if being mapped against ISO and Lisa replied that this very different. 14:28:01 their spread sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=470134919 14:28:17 +1 14:28:25 Rachael said this could be potentially much more important as it is something that is linked to 508 in USA 14:29:11 Lisa has said we do not want to miss this moment - as there is also a document on specifications to check if they are accessible 14:29:31 q+ 14:29:42 There is also a spreadsheet with rows for user needs and columns as functional needs. 14:29:59 ack next 14:30:03 q+ 14:30:29 Need to check whether coga is comfortable with the user and functional needs - not directly used for the check list - clarified by Michael using positive language 14:31:15 Michael suggested it was more about potential needs that could come out of having a disability - functional requirements for using online content 14:32:22 Michael also mentioned the resulting outcomes that may not be the same as WCAG 3 - divided into content that needs to be looked after by authors and technologies that need to be evaluated to fullfil the needs 14:32:40 ack next 14:33:45 John sugggested that some of the structure does not seem right such as limited memory and then processing speed - hard to map and this should perhaps be clarified 14:33:49 our note: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit# 14:34:27 Lisa has already started a google doc to collect thoughts from cogo task force members. A copy of the functional needs have been copied into the document 14:35:03 Lisa feels that some of the categories did not feel perfect so there is a need to get them right before thinking about user needs 14:35:13 John noticed that processing speed is missing 14:35:46 Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies (FAST) advises creators of technical specifications how to ensure their technology meets the needs of user with disabilities. 14:36:54 FAST is a tool with the functional needs list before the user needs - use with limited vision etc. missing is the cognitive aspect. 14:37:47 agreed 14:37:48 Same categories for cognitive as a separate issue which Lisa felt that there would be ovelaps and these seemed to be missing 14:38:23 Lisa suggested start with main categories and then break them up. Lisa has started with the definition from Content Usable. 14:39:14 Lisa felt the definition may not be as strong as we would like as it was not aiming to be used a mapping tool against functional needs 14:40:26 Need to go back an look at the way we wrote certain documents that contained functional needs - reasoning and knowledge missed out of the FAST document 14:40:39 q+ 14:41:32 Lisa went to talk about the various taxonomies that needs to looked at to help close the gaps 14:41:34 ack next 14:42:40 John suggested that intellectual difficulties such as reading levels may be missing and IQ - could create confusion 14:42:57 Lisa said we have it but not the FAST document 14:43:06 q- 14:44:24 Lisa is collecting the coga task force items and check what would need to be added to the FAST document. Looking at definitions 14:44:47 Lisa picked out 'learning' as a key term 14:45:26 Lisa continued to copy items across to the Google doc 14:46:03 ack next 14:47:02 Lisa is trying to build categories from the coga documents but the mapping is complex due to the different slant on the topic. 14:47:13 q+ 14:48:42 John suggested that when he describes the functional difficulties as memory, processing and learning. More about storage and speed linked to information and learning is the ability to understand information due to experience intellect and processing. This maps to how a computer works RAM and hard drive 14:49:35 John illustrated how to simplify these processes into something that can be easily understood. Age and deterioation 14:50:03 John then also added understanding as a category 14:51:17 Julie added that many of the categories mentioned in the FAST github document might also been in our document - suggested developing a table to show a comparison between coga docs 14:51:33 EA +1 to Julie idea 14:52:38 Lisa suggested we need to look first at what we feel should be included and then look at what FAST have included so we do not cloud our memories of what we alread have 14:52:50 already have 14:54:23 Julia felt we might be getting lost in the comparisons. Column A is FAST - Column B is what needs to be changed. Julia suggested coga may have more rows such as adding processing speed etc. 14:54:34 ack next 14:57:35 q+ 14:57:43 Lisa is keen for us to look just at functional needs - John agreed that it might not be too difficult as not too long 14:58:06 ack next 14:58:29 Le asked what it means with cognitive and sensory intersection? 15:00:00 This highlighted the problem when they also included language phonetic and phonemic and then there were sensory issues - several issues with the way things were being described 15:00:42 spoons! 15:00:52 Some items are in WCAG and as Le suggested there are external issues that impact on cognitive abilities 15:01:11 +1 to spoons! 15:01:33 spoons - similar to fatigue and cognitive overload 15:02:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory 15:02:19 My blog entry on spoons online: https://www.tpgi.com/beyond-wcag-losing-spoons-online/ 15:02:30 Only have a limited number of spoons - use them up and you cannot then have the abilities you might have before you started a task. 15:03:13 Yes please 15:03:47 Need to separate Language and communication 15:05:20 Lisa also wanted to add orientation and then there was a more indepth discussion about needing it in executive functioning - or does it need its own category 15:05:40 John felt it was good in executive functioning. 15:06:26 Lisa said we can go through the mapping exercise such as adding processing speed to the same category and John suggested also part of memory 15:08:31 my apologies - I need to head to another meeting! 15:09:55 John added poor memory affects executive functioning but not necessarily the other way around 15:10:22 john, lisa, will continue filling it 15:10:24 Thanks, everyone--I am late for my next meeting, cheers! 15:14:59 ea: we can share the iso doc for expert opinion and help 15:15:27 but careful not to make it public 15:16:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:17:21 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 15:17:43 RRSAgent, publish minutes 15:17:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/19-coga-minutes.html Lisa 17:34:26 kirkwood has joined #COGA 18:02:05 bkardell_ has joined #coga 19:01:17 ShawnT has joined #coga 19:59:51 ShawnT has joined #coga 20:23:26 ShawnT has joined #coga 21:07:24 ShawnT has joined #coga 21:54:26 ShawnT has joined #coga 23:23:02 ShawnT has joined #coga