IRC log of matf on 2022-05-09

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Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
19:06:07 [trackbot]
Date: 09 May 2022
19:06:23 [Kim_patch]
Topic: introductions
19:07:38 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: Been at W3C a long time, formally mobile, 3.0 leadership
19:07:50 [Kim_patch]
JJ: accessible apps
19:09:01 [jjdg]
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+1
19:10:08 [jeanne]
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19:10:25 [jeanne]
q+ to speak to the charter proposals
19:13:06 [jeanne]
Survey -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/
19:13:23 [SSally]
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19:13:35 [SSally]
+
19:16:06 [Kim_patch]
TOPIC: survey
19:16:34 [Kim_patch]
TOPIC: Tour of the work that Jan Jaap is doing
19:17:29 [Kim_patch]
Jan: guidelines for accessible apps page
19:18:36 [Kim_patch]
https://appt-nl.translate.goog/kennisbank/richtlijnen?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp
19:19:10 [Kim_patch]
Jan: guidelines in Dutch explain how to interpret WCAG – we have code examples of people can copy paste those solutions and fix issues. We have done this for all criteria
19:19:30 [Kim_patch]
JJ: examples – some quite long
19:19:51 [Kim_patch]
JJ: that's mostly what I've been working on code examples and linking them to WCAG
19:20:12 [Kim_patch]
JJ: development website – this will be English first https://appt-dev-o4ale4roda-ez.a.run.app/
19:20:27 [Kim_patch]
JJ: iOS, android and three development frameworks
19:20:36 [Kim_patch]
JJ: code examples and you can switch between programming languages
19:20:57 [Kim_patch]
JJ: also properties it inherits from other objects so you have a complete overview for each object what accessibility properties are available
19:21:34 [Kim_patch]
JJ: code examples, guidelines, we already have WCAG, also section 508 and others.
19:22:31 [Kim_patch]
JJ: all the different guidelines linked. Switch Between platforms so iOS developer, and then all the code examples for the pages will be in your preferred form
19:22:49 [Kim_patch]
JJ: so if you switch you can switch all the code examples in one go.
19:22:58 [Kim_patch]
JJ: English, Dutch, dark mode, everything is open source
19:23:19 [Kim_patch]
JJ: the code examples are also MIT licensed
19:24:32 [Kim_patch]
JJ: Also github repository, Markdown files for each success criteria, also full names and you can jump to the markdown file, look at source code, contribute. We have 33 stars so some people have founded and are using it. We are trying to build open source website, platform, content, community.
19:25:29 [Kim_patch]
JJ: That's why I joined the working group so I can see if I can contribute some of this – it would be nice if some of this were on the W3C website and not just our website. Developers try to Solve issues and they go to W3C site and there is very little solutions for iOS or android, just web. You know this is Legal requirement in many countries now not just web
19:26:13 [Kim_patch]
JJ: will have a better version of the website I just showed. We have two developers full-time working on this. In a few weeks launch a better version in the next months until October working on content and hope to launch around October. Quarter four of this year with a better version.
19:26:25 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I think end of May will have an official link to this content website better version
19:26:45 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I'm working on the documentation in the guidelines and then we also have partnership with a company and they are writing about accessibility features.
19:27:42 [Kim_patch]
JJ: we are doing the technical part in their doing the soft part with interviews with users with disabilities assistive technologies other tools they are using, videos, writing stories explaining all the accessibility features that exist on iOS that exist on android so they provide around 100 articles about this. And we provide also a couple hundred articles in total about WCAG it's already 70 articles, and Section 508 has a lot of articles.
19:27:49 [Kim_patch]
JJ: hope to launch this year that's the goal
19:27:56 [Kim_patch]
Sally: very cool – this is what I was looking for
19:28:22 [Kim_patch]
JJ: looking for feedback and also any content you would like on there
19:28:45 [Kim_patch]
JJ: there will be a form where we will collect feedback from people
19:28:58 [Kim_patch]
JJ: then we have 160 hours of development to fix whatever features people request
19:29:33 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: this is very cool, this is a lot of what we would like to do and with tag three. It's our goals but we haven't Gotten to do it yet. I'm eager to see what you do with it and certainly I would like to show it to a lot more people
19:30:11 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: and say this is what we should do – we have would have to look into how much we can do with it. I'm eager to see what happens with it.
19:31:04 [Kim_patch]
JJ: licensing is just mention where you publish it from and link to the original – that's all you need to do to use the code examples. We also built an API so also automatically will be able to fetch the code examples and content and put it in other ways. So we really encourage people to take the content transform and do whatever you want with it. Even commercially. As long as you attribute it to us and that's the only requirement we have j[CUT]
19:31:37 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: I'd like to also say in reverse – that as we get more of 3.0 done we also hope to have an API so you can link. I think this is going to be very interesting
19:31:50 [Kim_patch]
JJ: APIs very powerful – you can always make sure you're using updated version of the content
19:32:53 [Kim_patch]
JJ: small organization just a couple of people I think we can get a lot done in a small amount of time but the next step we are trying to build community and it will be slower.
19:33:37 [Kim_patch]
Kim: this is great – you're making accessibility information accessible
19:34:01 [Kim_patch]
JJ: we will hopefully get more feedback once we have the version live at the end of the month and will continue to develop – just a lot of content
19:35:23 [Kim_patch]
Sally: I like it because it's simple. I like the ability to switch between languages. The amount of time I spend searching for that type of information is huge. I haven't used it with a screen reader so I've only seen what you put on the screen and it will be good to have another look through it. I like the links I like the dark mode
19:36:03 [Kim_patch]
JJ: everything we build it should be accessible so we do a lot of testing. It should be accessible with a screen reader. If you save the bookmark it will not change
19:36:36 [Kim_patch]
JJ: for content we just have test data but when we go for the better version we will have more real articles. We will have sample data which is real data. Right now we have random code examples
19:36:45 [Kim_patch]
Sally: I quite like the indexing ability. Search feature?
19:37:20 [Kim_patch]
JJ: yes we hope to add it Later. Smart searching a lot of documentation websites use, But we need to have real content before we implement that
19:37:34 [Kim_patch]
JJ: probably September
19:37:50 [Kim_patch]
Sally: Cool, it's making me want to do coding projects
19:38:09 [Kim_patch]
JJ: normally I'm an app developer not a web developer, but because this is web development There is so much more available for web
19:38:49 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I normally built for iOS and it's really accessible for native apps, but you find a lot of issues or bugs in Safari. We had to rebuild some of the – expand collapse didn't work and we had to rebuild
19:39:17 [Kim_patch]
Sally: usually Firefox is the one that works the most with my things – Firefox and Chrome. Anything else not good
19:40:06 [Kim_patch]
Sally: telehealth webinar they were very interested in stuff coming out – being able to read and audiogram and adjust your ear pods to match it things like that.
19:40:46 [Kim_patch]
JJ: company building our website they also built an app Sense math. They are using audio for Maps.
19:40:49 [jjdg]
SenseMath: https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/sensemath/id1546257766
19:41:43 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: I'm wondering how you are doing plain language and how that relates to the translations as well. As I think that's a really challenging part – I'm saying the little nitpicky things for which plain language and I'm wondering about the sources for it.
19:42:38 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: Picky things – For example observable rather than perceivable, but perceivable includes hearing
19:43:08 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: the work we are doing for what cake three it's challenging to change things the plain language. So I'm wondering how are you doing it – what principles are you following – I'd really like to know. This is hard to do.
19:43:32 [Kim_patch]
JJ: it was very hard but for app.org we are planning to translate the W3C to anything more simpler plan but we do plan to have explanations in plain language
19:44:07 [Kim_patch]
JJ: we will take official Dutch translation in trying to simplify it we use the tool from a Dutch company they can check to see if it's plain language or not and they also give good suggestions and then we took some words we checked it with a lot of people having picked the plain language alternative, but the same thing that you mentioned we have the same issue that sometimes when you translate it or make it more simple it loses some of the v[CUT]
19:44:49 [Kim_patch]
JJ: that's why we decided not to translate the titles anymore or the description anymore. We will use official titles and official descriptions and add a separate explanation field and add a simple plain language explanation. At first we were trying to also translate or simplify the titles and explanations but I think we decided not to do that anymore. First of all it takes a lot of time to get people on board behind the plain Version
19:46:10 [Kim_patch]
Jeanne: I agree that it's hard – even with native English language trying to choose words that are accessible to the WCAG group. I agree with your decision not to change the titles is a good one and I like the idea to of Putting the plain language next to it so you're not interfering with the Official
19:46:47 [Kim_patch]
JJ: one of the reasons we were trying to simplifies we found that the Dutch translation was harder than the English so for some reason the Dutch translation used more harder university level words which you would never use in a normal day-to-day, but English version is a lot easier for me even as a non-native speaker –
19:47:05 [Kim_patch]
JJ: in English it uses audio only. In Dutch it uses a specific word that's harder
19:48:22 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I've learned quite a lot from these meetings already – words like lived experience I had seen before I was using different words. In Dutch we use a lot of different – we have a similar word to lived experience but we would call it experience version. That's how we would literally translated.
19:48:49 [Kim_patch]
Sally: Moving around How government is doing disability in New Zealand – taking out of health
19:49:13 [Kim_patch]
JJ: in Dutch disability less harsh than the word used in English. Sometimes you translated to the exact word but still people have different feeling about it
19:49:22 [Kim_patch]
Sally: we could talk for hours about the breaking apart of the word disability…
19:49:44 [Kim_patch]
JJ: that's why we have a big button beside each article where you can express feedback
19:50:07 [Kim_patch]
Topic: JJ survey questions
19:50:15 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I can share the answers
19:50:21 [Kim_patch]
Sally: I think we can get more depth around why
19:51:17 [Kim_patch]
JJ: survey was for companies that develop app to see if they were using any code library to see if they were facing issues but when we did interviews we found out that companies are not eggy about accessibility it also not using any libraries. So we expanded it to would you like to have an accessibility statement or level or mark. So we focused more on fixing issues and they are not even at finding issues or being aware of accessibility so we[CUT]
19:51:30 [Kim_patch]
JJ: steps ahead
19:51:50 [Kim_patch]
Sally: we can find out if people are being taught it. There's some literature but it's just Been at conferences is not been published
19:51:59 [Kim_patch]
JJ: started data collection
19:52:31 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I hope in the near future I can share some numbers for android – hopefully in a couple of weeks. We do have the data now for a couple 100,000 users
19:54:20 [Kim_patch]
TOPIC: topics for further discussion
19:54:37 [Kim_patch]
Sally: figuring out what people are actually using – we are doing it but it would be good to come from others as well. So research questions, survey
19:55:13 [Kim_patch]
JJ: also resources That people are actually using. Are there more guidelines I don't yet know about, especially foreign languages
19:55:27 [Kim_patch]
JJ: we have some in Dutch that people outside the Netherlands don't know about. There's probably a lot of quality content out there we just don't read it.
19:55:41 [Kim_patch]
Sally: the other thing I'm interested in is why people are not using them – why people choose not to pursue accessibility
19:55:59 [Kim_patch]
JJ: I think one of the most important questions – why people don't make apps landscape design. But it would be really interesting to hear from people why not
19:56:19 [Kim_patch]
JJ: and maybe the same question from designers – why do Designers make responsive web design but not responsive app design
19:56:55 [Kim_patch]
Sally: I don't work in the Computing in the University – I supervise but I don't teach – we can tap into the education of students – we can look at the radar of what's taught if that makes sense. Because what I gather from talking to colleagues is not on the agenda
19:57:02 [Kim_patch]
Sally: that's just at my university could be different around the world
20:00:13 [jjdg]
Stove issues -> Don Norman - The design of everyday things
20:03:13 [Kim_patch]
Kim: he also wrote the psychology of everyday things, which is similar
20:04:03 [Kim_patch]
TOPIC: discussions for next time – Brainstorm on questions, then categorize them into survey, research and ethics
20:04:47 [Kim_patch]
Next meeting May 16
20:15:11 [Kim_patch]
Present+ Kim, Sally, Jeanne
20:15:25 [Kim_patch]
zakim, list participants
20:15:25 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Kim, Sally, Jeanne
20:15:40 [Kim_patch]
Present+ Jan Jaap
20:15:44 [Kim_patch]
zakim, list participants
20:15:44 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Kim, Sally, Jeanne, Jan, Jaap
20:16:40 [Kim_patch]
Present- Jan Jaap
20:16:43 [Kim_patch]
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20:16:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/09-matf-minutes.html Kim_patch
20:16:52 [Kim_patch]
zakim, list participants
20:16:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Kim, Sally, Jeanne, Jan, Jaap
20:17:43 [Kim_patch]
chair: Kimberly_Patch
20:17:52 [Kim_patch]
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20:23:39 [Kim_patch]
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20:23:39 [RRSAgent]
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