13:18:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #personalization
13:18:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/02-personalization-irc
13:18:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:19:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:19:01 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2022
13:19:14 <sharon> zakim, clear agenda
13:19:14 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:20:24 <sharon> agenda+ TPAC 12-16 September 2022 - Discuss meetings and form needed by 31 May at the latest:  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/LogisticsTPAC2022/
13:20:52 <sharon> agenda+ Naming - Next steps and WAI-Adapt Overview (draft) https://deploy-preview-8--wai-personalization-standards.netlify.app/personalization/
13:23:53 <sharon> agenda+ Caption line on WAI-Adapt draft overview https://deploy-preview-8--wai-personalization-standards.netlify.app/personalization/
13:24:34 <sharon> agenda+ Follow-up on i18n issue #144 https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
13:24:49 <sharon> agenda+ Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute -  https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/203
13:25:04 <sharon> agenda+ Discuss (a) multiple symbol values in a single markup, in addition to (b) multiple symbols constituting a single aggregated symbol
13:25:18 <sharon> agenda+ data-symbols https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/204
13:25:39 <sharon> agenda+ Issue 202 regarding Visible Indicators on 2.2 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/202
13:25:58 <sharon> agenda+ Planning future COGA meetings on Our Other Two Modules
13:26:04 <sharon> agenda?
13:29:03 <sharon> chair: Sharon
13:50:52 <janina> janina has joined #personalization
13:51:40 <janina> agenda?
13:58:47 <Matthew_Atkinson> Matthew_Atkinson has joined #personalization
14:02:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #personalization
14:04:46 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
14:05:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel
14:05:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:05:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:05:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC 12-16 September 2022 - Discuss meetings and form needed by 31 May at the latest:  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/LogisticsTPAC2022/ -- taken up [from sharon]
14:05:37 <Matthew_Atkinson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/02-personalization-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson
14:07:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: the form does include a field, do you want to meet with other groups
14:07:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: sounds like the usual
14:08:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> regrets: becky
14:08:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:08:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Naming - Next steps and WAI-Adapt Overview (draft) https://deploy-preview-8--wai-personalization-standards.netlify.app/personalization/ -- taken up [from sharon]
14:10:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: The CFC is in process, please chime in
14:10:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we can change the shortname in future
14:10:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:11:06 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:11:42 <Matthew_Atkinson> scribe: Matthew_Atkinson
14:11:48 <Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Lisa raised concerns: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2022Apr/0003.html
14:11:57 <Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: I think we can allay her fears about this.
14:12:03 <Matthew_Atkinson> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:12:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... expect the decision on Thursday morning East Coast Time
14:12:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel: Let's respond to Lisa's concern
14:12:43 <Matthew_Atkinson> s/... expect the/janina: expect/
14:12:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... she wrote, "I have a concern that we will limit ourselves in the future because of the name change. IE not do things, that are included in personalization but not in adaptation. Such as identifying the right version, via metadata for the page as a whole"
14:13:01 <Matthew_Atkinson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:13:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/02-personalization-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson
14:13:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: I will respond with COGA coordination
14:14:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We don't see that this new name limits us in this way.
14:14:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I can't possibly see how it would limit us in the specific case that Lisa mentions
14:15:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Regarding our consensus in general BTW: Consensus is not unanimity. If one member does object, perhaps very strongly, the test is, 'can you live with this group decision.'
14:16:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... If you find frequently that you 'cannot live' with the consensus, consider whether you are being part of the problem or part of the solution
14:17:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... This is restating what is already stated in the process document.
14:17:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Relying on a super majority, without defining the specifics on how to measure that super majority
14:17:48 <Matthew_Atkinson> FYI here's the section (I think) of the process doc: https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#consensus-building
14:17:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:17:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Caption line on WAI-Adapt draft overview https://deploy-preview-8--wai-personalization-standards.netlify.app/personalization/ -- taken up [from sharon]
14:19:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: This is up to your group, we can make this decision internally, no need for checking in with external groups
14:19:46 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:19:51 <CharlesL> present+
14:19:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I like the last one, "Enabling users to personalize content presentation"
14:20:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1
14:20:02 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:20:02 <sharon> +1
14:20:13 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:20:49 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
14:20:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: I, too, like the last one, particularly as it mentions Personalization
14:21:00 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/02-personalization-minutes.html CharlesL
14:21:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> .... the end of the phrase could, by some people, be seen as limiting
14:21:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> .... Enabling users to personalize content presentation. Note the "content presentation"
14:22:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: The end user is always primary in this picture
14:22:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: I think presentation means getting the user the right content in the form they want
14:22:28 <CharlesL> +1 to last option as well  "Enabling users to personalize content presentation
14:22:28 <CharlesL> "
14:23:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: I can recall that Lisa did also speak about content replacement, which tread on the toes of copyright concerns
14:23:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but i dont see this as a problem
14:23:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:23:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we build technologies that enable people to simplify things
14:23:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and give those to the author. The author controls it.
14:23:59 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:25:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: I agree that those two words are not perfect. I have thought that the personalization is the experience, or the user agent mediated experience
14:26:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: We just need to discuss it enough to be able to answer any concerns that people may have in future about these two words
14:26:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... This phrase is pithy and brings most of what's important to mind
14:27:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: and we can always expand and clarify
14:27:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and it gives a good basis to talk about it.
14:28:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> RESOLVED: The subtitle (the 'tag line') is "Enabling users to personalize content presentation"
14:28:56 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:29:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:29:17 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:29:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:30:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:30:42 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Follow-up on i18n issue #144 https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144 -- taken up [from sharon]
14:30:59 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2022Apr/0024.html
14:31:26 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:32:00 <Matthew_Atkinson> Check out this latest comment on #144 at the time of writing: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144#issuecomment-1112202953
14:32:08 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:33:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: i18n has closed the issue
14:33:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel pops a champagne cork !
14:37:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> Zakim, next item
14:37:45 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute -  https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/203 -- taken up [from sharon]
14:38:22 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:38:47 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:39:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
14:41:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: These issues prove that we are venturing into little trod territory
14:42:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the fact that Lisa and other experts cannot advise us
14:42:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... (referring to Agenda item 6 (a) and (b)
14:42:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Lisa was not confident that the issue was addressed in the Bliss document she sent
14:43:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: The cup of tea sample has a multiple symbol example in it: cup of tea has three symbols
14:44:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: Perhaps we just pay attention to the samples in the specification. Should there be a multiple symbol sample in the spac?
14:45:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:45:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Keep in mind, the spec will improve in future
14:45:31 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:46:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to Matt on just looking at the samples
14:47:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel: Bliss seemed to be the only symbol set that expressed abstract grammatical, syntactial semantics like "of" or "to"
14:48:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we learned that in modern day practice, symbols are very symbol and broad
14:48:12 <CharlesL> +1 to simpler examples
14:48:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: The multiple attribute samples feels like we are recommending something, where we are not
14:48:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Let's run it by Lisa
14:48:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to simpler examples
14:48:56 <sharon> q?
14:51:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> RESOLVED: Change the cup of tea sample--currently with three symbols in one attribute, to be a cup of tea sample with one symbol in each attribute.
14:53:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: The chairs should see to it that Bliss is contracted regarding using W3C registries as a master lookup index for the symbol values that they publish
14:54:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... ion "The Fundamental Rules of Blissymbolics" published by Blissymbolics Communication International, © Blissymbolics Communication International (BCI) 1982,2020. Bliss-characters and Bliss-words used herein conform to the BCI Authorized Vocabulary as published by BCI. For more information see www.blissymbolics.org
14:55:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:57:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: We need to turn our attention now to messaging.
14:57:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
14:57:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Everyone: remember to vote on the CfC!
14:58:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/02-personalization-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
15:16:51 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #personalization