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13:30:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-irc
13:30:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:30:44 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:39:57 <janina> janina has joined #silver
13:40:41 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
13:41:15 <jeanne> agenda+ AG charter survey
13:41:40 <jeanne> agenda+ continuation of Guidelines Breakdown exercise
13:41:47 <jeanne> agenda?
13:41:59 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:41:59 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:42:16 <jeanne> agenda+ AG charter survey
13:42:28 <jeanne> agenda+ continuation of Guidelines Breakdown exercise
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13:57:33 <Lauriat> agenda?
13:57:41 <Lauriat> Present+
13:58:56 <Rachael> present+
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13:59:40 <Chuck> agenda?
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14:02:20 <Chuck> yep, will shut up now :-)
14:02:29 <ToddL> present+
14:02:43 <Chuck> present+
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14:03:08 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:03:08 <Jem> present+
14:03:08 <jeanne> present+
14:03:11 <Makoto> present+
14:03:23 <shadi> present+
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14:03:45 <janina> present+
14:03:48 <janina> scribe: janina
14:03:58 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 1
14:03:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- AG charter survey -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:04:00 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/?login
14:04:03 <kirkwood> present+
14:04:05 <maryjom> present+
14:04:26 <janina> Rachael: Please advise if not accessible link!
14:05:01 <janina> Rachael: This is a progress report on charter discussions; noting possibility of splitting the group between work on 2 and 3
14:05:15 <janina> Rachael: Notes there's more work to be done than we can accomplish
14:05:31 <janina> Rachael: so we need to make some decisions; reduce workload; or reorganize
14:05:47 <janina> Rachael: Notes there's a difference of mindset between 2 and 3
14:06:00 <JF> JF has joined #silver
14:06:04 <janina> Rachael: The mindset is important; but has implications for policies and procedures as well
14:06:06 <JF> Present+
14:06:27 <janina> Rachael: We have tried to address, but would wish we'd been more successful at that
14:06:37 <JF> agenda?
14:06:41 <janina> Rachael: we've drafted some proposals--but these are just drafts!
14:07:12 <shadi> q+
14:07:19 <janina> Rachael: WBS intends to solicit views; 3 charter options; please take the time to consider carefully and respond!
14:07:20 <JF> URLs for those proposals?
14:07:30 <Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/?login
14:07:48 <Rachael> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2022/charter.html
14:07:55 <janina> shadi: Q on #6; any opportunity to restate?
14:08:20 <janina> shadi: Would be happy to paerticipate in both, but my emphasis would be strongly on 3
14:09:04 <Lauriat> ack shadi
14:09:05 <janina> shadi: Q to ask whether there's a risk that WCAG3 charter might not pass without 2?
14:09:33 <janina> Rachael: Believe there are several risks; we should discuss, regardless
14:10:12 <Jem> +q
14:10:59 <Lauriat> ack Jem
14:11:04 <janina> Jem: Please make sure people in your groups are aware of this WBS. We need everyone's participation
14:11:29 <Rachael> Two charter links: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2022_alternates/charter-new-group.html and https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2022_alternates/charter.html
14:11:45 <Chuck> q+
14:11:47 <janina> Jem: Q about reason not to split -- Public might find concurrent work confusing -- because there are two charters?
14:12:04 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:12:15 <janina> Rachael: Don't believe public pays attention to charters. Main potential is that two specs in concurrent development
14:12:21 <janina> Jem: Eventually, 2 is gone.
14:12:50 <janina> Rachael: Proposal is to take address remaining issues in 2; while other group iterates on 3
14:13:09 <janina> q+
14:13:10 <SuzanneTaylor> +1 to the creation of the really clean final WCAG 2 version
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14:13:52 <janina> Jem: Notes I've been working on both; and would really like it down to one
14:13:59 <shadi> q+
14:14:02 <Lauriat> ack janina
14:14:15 <sarahhorton> present+
14:14:31 <Chuck> janina:  I think i'm not as worried about public perception.  We messaged that 3 would take a while and 2 would not be deprecated.  Just a year ago we deprecated 1.  We haven't worked on 1 since 1998.
14:14:47 <maryjom> +1 Two groups spreads already thin resources to cover development of multiple standards.
14:14:54 <maryjom> q+
14:14:58 <JF> Q+
14:15:02 <Chuck> janina:  We've said all along that people built based on 2 could continue to count on 2.  If creating a second group creates another messaging opportunity it will only help public perception, we are trying to be more efficient.
14:15:15 <Chuck> janina:  It's not that 2 goes away sooner or 3 takes over faster.  It's a feature not a bug.
14:15:21 <kirkwood> q+
14:15:31 <Lauriat> ack shadi
14:15:34 <janina> scribe: janina
14:15:50 <janina> shadi: One of my worries is that work isn't less unless we reduce some of the work
14:16:06 <Rachael> Splitting as written now actually increases the work
14:16:09 <janina> shadi: So, it may help on focus; but not actually on load
14:16:11 <Lauriat> ack maryjom
14:16:14 <Chuck> q+ to say that there are benefits and challenges to either/any approach
14:16:23 <kirkwood> +1 Janina
14:16:28 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/?login
14:16:38 <Jem> we are talking this survey in case you join late.
14:16:43 <janina> maryjom: Having two groups definitely stretches limited resources; notes EU reqs coming that add to that load
14:16:56 <Lauriat> ack JF
14:17:19 <kirkwood> q-
14:17:21 <janina> jf: Is the suggestion here that 2.2 is the end; or that 2.3 is still a possibility?
14:17:26 <Rachael> q+ to answer
14:17:30 <janina> jf: Notes there are no testable statements for XR
14:17:47 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
14:17:47 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer
14:18:29 <janina> Rachael: There are several approaches that are easier if we split;
14:18:46 <janina> Rachael: To date there have not been objections to new notes
14:18:51 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:18:51 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say that there are benefits and challenges to either/any approach
14:19:11 <janina> Chuck: Notes each approach has pros and cons; there's no perfect proposal
14:19:26 <Jem> written challenges are clear to me as the participant.
14:19:31 <jeanne> q+ to talk about decision policies
14:19:36 <janina> Chuck: Notes this has been in discussion among chairs; are now opening to the wider group
14:19:45 <Jem> reasons to split as the challenge
14:19:51 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:19:51 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about decision policies
14:20:31 <janina> jeanne: Notes 3 progress has been incremental; ...
14:20:53 <janina> jeanne: Good 2 policies to polish and perfect 2 are impeding work on the more expirimental 3;
14:21:30 <janina> jeanne: this is an argument for split; because we can have more appropriate procedures and policies for 2 and for 3 -- which will be different
14:21:36 <Lauriat> qv?
14:21:39 <sarahhorton> q+
14:21:49 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
14:22:14 <Chuck> here's the survey:  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/?login
14:22:14 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/one_or_two_groups/?login
14:22:42 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:22:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-minutes.html janina
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14:23:07 <Makoto> q+
14:23:27 <janina> sarahhorton: One thought -- Think 3 is an innovation project
14:23:43 <janina> sarahhorton: It's also disruptive and that makes it challenging
14:24:05 <janina> sarahhorton: but our current policies and procedures aren't really supporting a disruptive, innovative project
14:24:13 <janina> sarahhorton: so i see risks to continue as we have been
14:24:39 <janina> sarahhorton: one thing to underscore -- innovation need to be surrounded stakeholders and customers who value the innovation; else no success
14:25:01 <Lauriat> +1 to the need for stakeholder involvement
14:25:08 <Rachael> q+
14:25:25 <janina> sarahhorton: so concerned that we make sure charter supports and values methods and directions of 3
14:25:36 <janina> sarahhorton: else we continue to fail even though two groups
14:25:37 <jeanne> +1 Sarah!
14:25:37 <Lauriat> ack Makoto
14:26:00 <Rachael> q+ to answer both
14:26:04 <janina> Makoto: Situation in JP is wondering when 2.2 will go TR; also whether it will become next ISO standard
14:26:09 <Chuck> q+ to address ISO standard
14:26:12 <janina> Makoto: Whom should I ask?
14:26:52 <jeanne> q+ to answer Makoto
14:27:09 <janina> Makoto: Hoping for ISO update to 2.2; because ISO important to JP
14:27:23 <janina> Makoto: Would support option which brings 2.2 to TR sooner
14:27:32 <jeanne> q-
14:27:37 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
14:27:37 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer both
14:28:00 <janina> Rachael: We are closing major conversations on 2.2; will still have surveys, but should be closeout work
14:28:14 <janina> Rachael: ISO will begin soon
14:28:21 <janina> s/will/expected to begin/
14:28:24 <Jem> great news!
14:28:28 <janina> s/begin begin/begin/
14:29:07 <janina> Rachael: Notes one motivation is the opportunity for disparate policies; notes current W3C process guidance is more conducive to 3
14:29:24 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:29:24 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to address ISO standard
14:29:45 <Jem> suggestion - can we make more clear about #3The public could find two groups working concurrently to be confusing.?
14:29:52 <janina> Chuck: Notes if further questions after Tuesday, suggest Judy; but wait for Tuesday announcement first
14:30:00 <JF> Q+
14:30:20 <Rachael> I can edit it a bit.
14:31:22 <Lauriat> ack JF
14:31:38 <janina> jf: Q re ISO: Do we see 3 moving to ISO?
14:31:38 <Chuck> q+
14:31:54 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:31:56 <janina> jeanne: Once finished; but not sooner!
14:32:05 <janina> Chuck: Current efforts are specific to 2.2
14:32:49 <Jem> sorry to keep bugging about #The public could find two groups working concurrently on two different accessibility standards to be confusing.
14:33:57 <janina> Jem: See edit; looks clearer; suggests 2 and 3 have different strengths; want to make public aware of fundamental differences
14:34:24 <janina> Jem: not sure how to rephrase
14:35:15 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:35:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- continuation of Guidelines Breakdown exercise -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:35:45 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:35:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-minutes.html janina
14:36:25 <janina> jeanne: introduces options including focus of 3 groups on 3 aspects
14:36:36 <jeanne> Links to documents:   - 2.2.4 Interruptions
14:36:36 <jeanne>    <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HSl8bUEVrfyYem9555z7kzX5s1LWLwj_Wad-ko2mOeI/>
14:36:36 <jeanne>    - 3.1.4 Abbreviations
14:36:36 <jeanne>    <https://docs.google.com/document/d/14CBwo74SrVkwinN5YWeKIjLqvr1K7cNX9CulXwbFIUM/>
14:36:37 <jeanne>    - 3.2.4 Consistent Identification
14:36:37 <jeanne>    <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pixL2TUGuskgH0ZfT8zmJpM1-Q2qEr-y9H7RpNslxSc/>
14:37:39 <janina> jeanne: invites people to indicate preferred group via Zoom; or inform me ...
14:37:51 <janina> jeanne: will regroup here 5 min ahead of the hour
14:37:54 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-minutes.html janina
14:55:54 <janina> [Full group resumes following breakouts]
14:56:36 <janina> scribe: janina
14:57:12 <janina> jeanne: Asks for reports ...
14:57:51 <janina> Rachael: works on guidelines, but finished one; great conversation about how to define units; will write up
14:58:38 <janina> Chuck: Focussed on one subguideline using term "tooltip," probably not best term because of possible HTML conflict
14:58:39 <Jem> +1 to JF regarding tool tip
14:58:45 <janina> Chuck: discussed other naming options
14:59:00 <janina> jf: Landed on "just in time mechanism" as the abstraction
14:59:37 <Jem> tooltip is the widget ARIA APG is still working on via three deep dive meetings.
14:59:43 <janina> maryjom: Good discussion for objective testing; would need some protocols; a style guide to define how to identify consistently and would test to that
15:00:27 <janina> jeanne: thanks everyone and reminds current WBS and PleASE spread the word and attend next Tuesday's AGWG!
15:00:39 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-minutes.html jeanne
15:02:10 <jeanne> s/yep, will shut up now :-)//
15:02:26 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/29-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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