IRC log of editing on 2022-04-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

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Meeting: Web Editing Working Group 22-04
14:48:20 [johanneswilm]
Zakim: this will be the Web Editing Group 22-04 meeting
14:48:55 [johanneswilm]
Zakim, this will be the Web Editing Group 22-04 meeting
14:48:55 [Zakim]
ok, johanneswilm
14:53:01 [whsieh]
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Chair: johanneswilm
14:53:46 [comandeer]
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14:56:20 [whsieh]
if we have time today, should we discuss how we should proceed with
14:57:19 [johanneswilm]
ok, let'
14:57:25 [johanneswilm]
s add that to the end then.
14:57:38 [whsieh]
14:59:45 [BoCupp]
15:00:01 [johanneswilm]
15:00:25 [comandeer]
15:01:42 [johanneswilm]
15:02:29 [johanneswilm]
15:03:28 [johanneswilm]
Bo: we are in favor of something like that. We ca see how a custom format can turn into wellknown format over time. thumbs up.
15:03:36 [AlexK]
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15:03:44 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: and that is synchronous?
15:03:53 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: yes, just a hardcode list
15:04:07 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: we are in support for it as well
15:04:24 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: is clipboarditem the right place?
15:04:58 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: only alternative method is to have method on clipboard and then have mwethod on it handing it an item.
15:05:06 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: I favor clipboarditem
15:06:58 [johanneswilm]
RESOLUTION: add synchronous method on clipboarditem to query supported wellknown formats and whether web custom formats are supports.
15:07:19 [johanneswilm]
15:08:38 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Our objection is that removal of delegation mechanism favors one particular user interface like in safari ... firefox plans to also support similar UI. we don't.
15:10:00 [johanneswilm]
... Problems showing up when one uses an iframe and doesn't do particular type of UI.
15:10:46 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Userexperience should be an area where browsers can differ. SO we would be against applying PR removing this.
15:11:07 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: So is permissions prompt currently required?
15:12:15 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: No, this is when you do have permissions prompt and iframes. That's when you need a delegation model. Can we leave it in the spec. We'll need it even if it isn't in there.
15:12:48 [johanneswilm]
johanneswilm: so having this in spec will not affect firefox/safari?
15:12:53 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: correct.
15:14:16 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: we have not really discussed with PR stakeholders.
15:15:18 [johanneswilm]
ACTION: BoCupp will communicate with authors of PR.
15:15:47 [johanneswilm]
15:16:42 [johanneswilm]
johanneswilm: user gestures are problematic for remote desktop clients.
15:17:17 [johanneswilm]
anupam: We discussed async. Issue should be resolved.
15:17:42 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: how specifically should we relax user gesture requirement?
15:18:01 [johanneswilm]
15:19:01 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: is timing only applying to write?
15:19:04 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: yes
15:19:42 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: so how about tab not being active anymore, or a second write being initiated....
15:20:23 [johanneswilm]
15:21:06 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: Problem is that we don't even know if something should be written to clipboard. So we just extend the time.
15:23:33 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Problem is that it may take longer than 5 seconds to receive an answer from server and knwo whether something should eb added to clipboard.
15:24:05 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: So we could extend time limit.
15:25:28 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Firefox uses 5 seconds.
15:26:23 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: We use 1 second currently settimeout and fetch to propagatae user gestures. This is what we we wanted to use universally.
15:27:55 [johanneswilm]
ACTION: whsieh will check user activation spec and come up with a proposal for a number of seconds.
15:28:26 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: no amount of time will solve the problem. 1 second seems reasonable.
15:29:12 [johanneswilm]
15:30:14 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: We will discuss async.
15:30:43 [johanneswilm]
15:31:02 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: I have seen the answer, but we have not time to look at it.
15:31:52 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: The question is whether the automatic lifting to doing so manually influence screenreaders?
15:32:28 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: talked to accessibility group.
15:33:47 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: The way we deal with having fixed element at bottom is that we allow scrolling so that one have the keyboard below the lowest element on the page.
15:34:04 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: I understand the concern, but we need to experiment.
15:35:12 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: cannot commit someone to work on it right now. Cannot [promise answer in a month.
15:35:38 [johanneswilm]
15:35:39 [whsieh]
15:35:55 [johanneswilm]
15:36:21 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: Jen Simmons has been coordinating interop 2022 from our side
15:36:35 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: pat of that is making web platform tests universal.
15:37:05 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: many failures in editing is that execCommand behaves differently in different browsers.
15:37:33 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: so what do we do? we historically tried to make them consistent with native UI behavior.
15:38:09 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: This is not the first time this comes up. We have not tried to align similar behavior.
15:38:57 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Becomes large editors don't use DOM. Even editors using DOM use their own commands (even if they use HTML and not their own document model).
15:39:09 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: It's not very extensible.
15:39:35 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: There is not much of a surface for web platform developers.
15:40:15 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: It seesm to me that unless you want to have a ribbon at the top of an editor.... it's not that usable with execCommand.
15:40:34 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: I think we all agree that execCommand goes the way of the dinosaurs.
15:40:49 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: The question is what do we do with the tests? Do we just discard them?
15:41:09 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: The problem is there are still web pages that use them?
15:41:42 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Are there some tests that do pass everywhere that we can use as anti-regression tests?
15:47:37 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: Are there areas where extra tests would make sense?
15:47:45 [snianu]
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15:47:49 [whsieh]
whsieh: yeah, standardizing selection behavior is at least as hard as execCommand
15:48:17 [snianu]
Blink and Webkit have very similar behavior last I checked, but FF differs a lot in the editing commands. me says:I think selection behavior is a much harder problem as there are commands like Word movement and stuff(that depends on the ICU lib) that affects selection and standardizing that is not an easy task me says:and there are platform specific word break behavior as well that complicates it a bit
15:48:28 [johanneswilm]
johanneswilm: For editors that use the native selection (caret), it would be helpful to get more standardization on how that caret behaves.
15:48:49 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: Some of that is currently hard to test.
15:49:49 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: [multiple examples...] some of the differences are platform dependent.
15:50:15 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: We have come a long way in the area of input events and target ranges.
15:50:42 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: It may sometimes be difficult to say how they behave in case of eevry execComnmand.
15:51:11 [whsieh]
I think we could all feasibly align on async clipboard API WPT as well
15:51:37 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: It may be a point to make sure that input text events are behaving the same. There is still an issue with the last event in IME being canceleable.
15:52:31 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: We had some differences in the area of pickling, etc. but taking a step back some more general areas are fairly standardized. If we can tests user gestures.
15:53:01 [johanneswilm]
whsieh: We don't have gesture requirement for same-origin clipboard events, so they could just add those themselves...
15:53:37 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: So input events has best shot
15:54:01 [johanneswilm]
BoCupp: agree
15:55:43 [johanneswilm]
ACTION: BoCupp will tag implementers + johanneswilm in issue on which parts of editing make sense in interop 2022.
16:00:29 [johanneswilm]
Zakim, bye
16:00:29 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been BoCupp, johanneswilm, comandeer
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RRSAgent, make log public
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate johanneswilm
16:00:58 [johanneswilm]
rrsagent, bye
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I see 3 open action items saved in :
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ACTION: BoCupp will communicate with authors of PR. [1]
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recorded in
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ACTION: whsieh will check user activation spec and come up with a proposal for a number of seconds. [2]
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recorded in
16:00:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: BoCupp will tag implementers + johanneswilm in issue on which parts of editing make sense in interop 2022. [3]
16:00:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in