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14:42:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-irc
14:44:42 <johanneswilm> set logs world-visible
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14:47:12 <johanneswilm> Meeting: Web Editing Working Group 22-04
14:48:20 <johanneswilm> Zakim: this will be the Web Editing Group 22-04 meeting
14:48:55 <johanneswilm> Zakim, this will be the Web Editing Group 22-04 meeting
14:48:55 <Zakim> ok, johanneswilm
14:53:01 <whsieh> whsieh has joined #editing
14:53:09 <johanneswilm> Chair: johanneswilm
14:53:46 <comandeer> comandeer has joined #editing
14:56:20 <whsieh> if we have time today, should we discuss how we should proceed with https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2022/issues/17?
14:57:19 <johanneswilm> ok, let'
14:57:25 <johanneswilm> s add that to the end then.
14:57:38 <whsieh> 👍🏻
14:59:45 <BoCupp> present+
15:00:01 <johanneswilm> present+
15:00:25 <comandeer> present+
15:01:42 <johanneswilm> topic: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170
15:02:29 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170
15:03:28 <johanneswilm> Bo: we are in favor of something like that. We ca see how a custom format can turn into wellknown format over time. thumbs up.
15:03:36 <AlexK> AlexK has joined #editing
15:03:44 <johanneswilm> whsieh: and that is synchronous?
15:03:53 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: yes, just a hardcode list
15:04:07 <johanneswilm> whsieh: we are in support for it as well
15:04:24 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: is clipboarditem the right place?
15:04:58 <johanneswilm> whsieh: only alternative method is to have method on clipboard and then have mwethod on it handing it an item.
15:05:06 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I favor clipboarditem
15:06:58 <johanneswilm> RESOLUTION: add synchronous method on clipboarditem to query supported wellknown formats and whether web custom formats are supports.
15:07:19 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/164
15:08:38 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Our objection is that removal of delegation mechanism favors one particular user interface like in safari ... firefox plans to also support similar UI. we don't.
15:10:00 <johanneswilm> ... Problems showing up when one uses an iframe and doesn't do particular type of UI.
15:10:46 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Userexperience should be an area where browsers can differ. SO we would be against applying PR removing this.
15:11:07 <johanneswilm> whsieh: So is permissions prompt currently required?
15:12:15 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: No, this is when you do have permissions prompt and iframes. That's when you need a delegation model. Can we leave it in the spec. We'll need it even if it isn't in there.
15:12:48 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm: so having this in spec will not affect firefox/safari?
15:12:53 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: correct.
15:14:16 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: we have not really discussed with PR stakeholders.
15:15:18 <johanneswilm> ACTION: BoCupp will communicate with authors of PR.
15:15:47 <johanneswilm> topic: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/75
15:16:42 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm: user gestures are problematic for remote desktop clients.
15:17:17 <johanneswilm> anupam: We discussed async. Issue should be resolved.
15:17:42 <johanneswilm> whsieh: how specifically should we relax user gesture requirement?
15:18:01 <johanneswilm> ...
15:19:01 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: is timing only applying to write?
15:19:04 <johanneswilm> whsieh: yes
15:19:42 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: so how about tab not being active anymore, or a second write being initiated....
15:20:23 <johanneswilm> ...
15:21:06 <johanneswilm> whsieh: Problem is that we don't even know if something should be written to clipboard. So we just extend the time.
15:23:33 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Problem is that it may take longer than 5 seconds to receive an answer from server and knwo whether something should eb added to clipboard.
15:24:05 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: So we could extend time limit.
15:25:28 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Firefox uses 5 seconds.
15:26:23 <johanneswilm> whsieh: We use 1 second currently settimeout and fetch to propagatae user gestures. This is what we we wanted to use universally.
15:27:55 <johanneswilm> ACTION: whsieh will check user activation spec and come up with a proposal for a number of seconds.
15:28:26 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: no amount of time will solve the problem. 1 second seems reasonable.
15:29:12 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/393
15:30:14 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: We will discuss async.
15:30:43 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/15
15:31:02 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I have seen the answer, but we have not time to look at it.
15:31:52 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: The question is whether the automatic lifting to doing so manually influence screenreaders?
15:32:28 <johanneswilm> whsieh: talked to accessibility group.
15:33:47 <johanneswilm> whsieh: The way we deal with having fixed element at bottom is that we allow scrolling so that one have the keyboard below the lowest element on the page.
15:34:04 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I understand the concern, but we need to experiment.
15:35:12 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: cannot commit someone to work on it right now. Cannot [promise answer in a month.
15:35:38 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2022/issues/17
15:35:39 <whsieh> https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/396
15:35:55 <johanneswilm> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/396
15:36:21 <johanneswilm> whsieh: Jen Simmons has been coordinating interop 2022 from our side
15:36:35 <johanneswilm> whsieh: pat of that is making web platform tests universal.
15:37:05 <johanneswilm> whsieh: many failures in editing is that execCommand behaves differently in different browsers.
15:37:33 <johanneswilm> whsieh: so what do we do? we historically tried to make them consistent with native UI behavior.
15:38:09 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: This is not the first time this comes up. We have not tried to align similar behavior.
15:38:57 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Becomes large editors don't use DOM. Even editors using DOM use their own commands (even if they use HTML and not their own document model).
15:39:09 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: It's not very extensible.
15:39:35 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: There is not much of a surface for web platform developers.
15:40:15 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: It seesm to me that unless you want to have a ribbon at the top of an editor.... it's not that usable with execCommand.
15:40:34 <johanneswilm> whsieh: I think we all agree that execCommand goes the way of the dinosaurs.
15:40:49 <johanneswilm> whsieh: The question is what do we do with the tests? Do we just discard them?
15:41:09 <johanneswilm> whsieh: The problem is there are still web pages that use them?
15:41:42 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Are there some tests that do pass everywhere that we can use as anti-regression tests?
15:47:37 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: Are there areas where extra tests would make sense?
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15:47:49 <whsieh> whsieh: yeah, standardizing selection behavior is at least as hard as execCommand
15:48:17 <snianu> Blink and Webkit have very similar behavior last I checked, but FF differs a lot in the editing commands.  me says:I think selection behavior is a much harder problem as there are commands like Word movement and stuff(that depends on the ICU lib) that affects selection and standardizing that is not an easy task  me says:and there are platform specific word break behavior as well that complicates it a bit
15:48:28 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm: For editors that use the native selection (caret), it would be helpful to get more standardization on how that caret behaves.
15:48:49 <johanneswilm> whsieh: Some of that is currently hard to test.
15:49:49 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: [multiple examples...] some of the differences are platform dependent.
15:50:15 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: We have come a long way in the area of input events and target ranges.
15:50:42 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: It may sometimes be difficult to say how they behave in case of eevry execComnmand.
15:51:11 <whsieh> I think we could all feasibly align on async clipboard API WPT as well
15:51:37 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: It may be a point to make sure that input text events are behaving the same. There is still an issue with the last event in IME being canceleable.
15:52:31 <johanneswilm> whsieh: We had some differences in the area of pickling, etc. but taking a step back some more general areas are fairly standardized. If we can tests user gestures.
15:53:01 <johanneswilm> whsieh: We don't have gesture requirement for same-origin clipboard events, so they could just add those themselves...
15:53:37 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: So input events has best shot
15:54:01 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: agree
15:55:43 <johanneswilm> ACTION: BoCupp will tag implementers + johanneswilm in issue on which parts of editing make sense in interop 2022.
16:00:29 <johanneswilm> Zakim, bye
16:00:29 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been BoCupp, johanneswilm, comandeer
16:00:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #editing
16:00:37 <johanneswilm> RRSAgent, make log public
16:00:47 <johanneswilm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-minutes.html johanneswilm
16:00:58 <johanneswilm> rrsagent, bye
16:00:58 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-actions.rdf :
16:00:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: BoCupp will communicate with authors of PR. [1]
16:00:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-irc#T15-15-18
16:00:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: whsieh will check user activation spec and come up with a proposal for a number of seconds. [2]
16:00:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-irc#T15-27-55
16:00:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: BoCupp will tag implementers + johanneswilm in issue on which parts of editing make sense in interop 2022. [3]
16:00:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-editing-irc#T15-55-43