16:48:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:48:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-aria-irc
16:48:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:48:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:48:21 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:48:31 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:48:31 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:48:31 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220414T130000
16:48:31 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:48:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Working Group news!
16:48:31 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3uybe49
16:48:34 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JBcdVR
16:48:37 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:48:39 <agendabot> agenda+  -> TPAC Announcement https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/9503
16:48:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
16:48:45 <agendabot> agenda+  -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57
16:48:48 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
16:48:51 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661
16:48:54 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440
16:48:57 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76
16:49:00 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Do we need a notifications API in ARIA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/832
16:53:08 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
16:53:50 <jamesn> regrets+ HarrisSchneiderman
17:00:10 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:00:29 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:03:10 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:03:11 <chlane> scribe: chlane
17:03:16 <scotto> present+
17:03:38 <myasonik> present+
17:04:21 <StefanS> present+
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17:06:46 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:06:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Working Group news! -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:08 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria
17:07:13 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:07:13 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, chlane
17:07:21 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 2
17:07:21 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3uybe49 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:55 <CurtBellew> present+
17:07:57 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:08:00 <sarah_higley> present+
17:08:30 <chlane> 154 Bryan hasn't had time to see scotto was looking at an old HTML AAM issue
17:08:59 <chlane> there was a suggestion to cover case where label contains a form control and points to another one
17:09:25 <chlane> scotto: suggests to call this out as maybe do it but invalid if you do it
17:09:43 <chlane> jamesn: milestone this for accname
17:10:08 <chlane> w3c/aria #1721
17:10:10 <chlane> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping
17:10:14 <chlane> 1721
17:10:31 <chlane> scotto: goes back to radio button and related to open UI
17:10:39 <chlane> specing radio and radiogroup
17:10:54 <chlane> html allows for associations without radio group
17:11:06 <chlane> allow for markup patterns that don't neatly fit
17:11:08 <StefanS> q+
17:11:13 <chlane> jamesn: arent these patterns broken
17:11:20 <chlane> scotto: arguable
17:11:49 <chlane> scotto: a lot of discussion allowing for association of other elements, checboxes, toolbar, x of y
17:11:53 <jamesn> ack StefanS
17:12:00 <chlane> StefanS: embed in li
17:12:32 <chlane> StefanS: when you arrow to toolbar items, described by is not elegant
17:12:37 <chlane> StefanS: will work on this
17:12:59 <chlane> scotto: will keep eye on it
17:13:00 <chlane>  w3c/aria #1720
17:13:01 <chlane> Add explicit value calculations for textbox and searchbox role
17:13:15 <chlane> nothing in it
17:13:24 <StefanS> q-
17:13:38 <chlane> jamesn: combobox textbox 1.4
17:13:48 <chlane> need to say something about getting value
17:14:03 <chlane> scotto: behaves as expected, describing reality
17:14:13 <chlane> jamesn: 1.3
17:14:23 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:14:29 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:14:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:14:30 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:14:30 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:14:35 <Matt_King> present+
17:14:36 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 3
17:14:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JBcdVR -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:19 <chlane> https://bit.ly/3JBcdVR
17:15:30 <chlane> w3c/aria #1719
17:15:31 <chlane> Update authoring requirement for aria-selected on options
17:15:40 <chlane> matt sarah and chlane reviewers
17:16:16 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:16:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:16:17 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:17 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:16:22 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 4
17:16:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:08 <chlane> 4/28 open UI deep dive scheduled
17:17:14 <chlane> 5/5 dialog deep dive
17:17:19 <chlane> scheduled
17:17:30 <chlane> open UI catchup is tentative
17:17:52 <chlane> dialog deep dive is confirmed 5/5
17:18:13 <chlane> some weeks we have in depth meeting an hour before this one
17:18:38 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:18:38 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:18:39 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:18:39 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:18:49 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 5
17:18:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> TPAC Announcement https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/9503 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:09 <chlane> TPAC is going to be hybrid
17:19:20 <chlane> reg will open early July
17:19:39 <chlane> will be 9/12-9/16
17:19:46 <chlane> in Vancouver
17:20:00 <chlane> remote will be better that in the pasty
17:20:01 <chlane> past
17:20:04 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:20:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:20:05 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:05 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:20:10 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 6
17:20:10 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:55 <Siri> present+
17:21:08 <chlane> Support aria-description #69
17:21:19 <chlane> jamesn: Bryan update?
17:21:43 <chlane> Bryan, doesn't know the current status, James C and Aaron working on details
17:22:39 <chlane> Bryan will go back and look
17:22:55 <chlane> scotto: will review as well
17:22:57 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:22:57 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:22:58 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:22:58 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:23:02 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 7
17:23:02 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:41 <chlane> jamesn: waitng for reviews
17:23:51 <chlane> from James C and Cynthia
17:23:53 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:23:53 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
17:23:54 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:54 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:23:58 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 8
17:23:58 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:47 <chlane> Matt_King: no progress yet, not prioritized, aria-haspopup was higher
17:25:03 <chlane> Matt_King: wants to work on it
17:25:54 <chlane> jamesn: not convinced of pressing need for text separation
17:26:05 <chlane> Matt_King: popup is higher prioirity
17:26:16 <chlane> scotto: if we could just add a note to core AAM
17:26:21 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:26:21 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
17:26:22 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:26:22 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:26:23 <chlane> scotto: will file an issue
17:26:32 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 9
17:26:32 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:28:12 <chlane> sarah_higley: no need to discuss
17:28:16 <chlane> jamesn: have solution
17:28:17 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:28:17 <Zakim> agendum 9 closed
17:28:18 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:28:18 <Zakim> 1. Working Group news! [from agendabot]
17:28:25 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 10
17:28:25 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:29:31 <sarah_higley> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440#issuecomment-1091984559
17:29:54 <chlane> sarah_higley: will put the link in the gist too
17:31:12 <chlane> steps are listed in the comment
17:32:36 <chlane> sarah_higley: change the wording "authors may use aria-keyshortcuts"
17:32:49 <chlane> Matt_King: 3rd most permissive scoping, nameable
17:33:07 <chlane> Matt_King: wondering whether starting with broad scope is a good idea
17:33:18 <chlane> just becuase of the amount of testing
17:33:28 <chlane> large amount of examples
17:33:29 <spectranaut> present+
17:33:35 <jamesn> present+
17:33:37 <chlane> to avoid situaitons from the past
17:33:38 <jamesn> agenda?
17:33:42 <chlane> don't limit unecessarily
17:33:56 <chlane> when introducing something new
17:34:13 <chlane> going big as the start has greater potential for chaos
17:34:34 <chlane> would we be open to start with a more narrowly scoped option
17:34:53 <chlane> jamesC is pushing for more permissive scope
17:35:13 <chlane> jamesn: do we risk locking AT in behaviors around what we have done now
17:35:30 <chlane> Matt_King: if that risk exists there is a problem
17:35:37 <chlane> with extending it, period.
17:35:53 <chlane> Matt_King: if the use cases are that different, it shouldn't be broad
17:35:57 <chlane> jamesn: why is that?
17:36:31 <chlane> jamesn: if allowed on a broad set of things, constraints may make the interface decision different
17:36:43 <chlane> risky to narrowly scope originally
17:37:10 <chlane> Matt_King: the risk in designing broadly will make it more difficult to get implementation in AT
17:37:26 <chlane> Matt_King: need conversation with AT folks
17:37:51 <chlane> tests, colloborate with authors and AT devs
17:38:07 <chlane> the rest of the world will come
17:38:20 <chlane> success depends on bringing on all stakeholders
17:38:27 <chlane> end to end from the start
17:38:38 <chlane> jamesn: no point in doing the work
17:38:55 <chlane> scotto: aria readonly on checkboxes
17:39:16 <chlane> sarah talk to jaws and nvda
17:39:25 <chlane> Matt_King: has meeting with vispero tomorrow
17:39:55 <chlane> Matt_King: this is actually, going to add this to the agenda in concept
17:40:03 <chlane> jamesn: out tomorrow
17:40:22 <chlane> Matt_King: not tomorrow, next week
17:41:05 <chlane> Matt_King: not talk about secondary actions specifically
17:41:34 <chlane> Matt_King: 1 goal get feedback on test
17:41:41 <chlane> with signoff process
17:42:05 <chlane> Matt_King: the dream for the project, involve them from beginning in the developoment of tests
17:42:15 <chlane> this is how we might to ARIA in the futute
17:42:21 <chlane> future
17:42:32 <chlane> Matt_King: awesome synergy
17:42:47 <chlane> Matt_King: it was already hard to get stuff in the spec
17:42:57 <chlane> this is increasing scope
17:43:21 <chlane> Matt_King: the more we can turn this into a process and the right people to work on things
17:43:34 <chlane> we have stuff in 1.0 that is not used
17:43:50 <chlane> jamesn: much of the role parity stuff will not be used
17:43:58 <chlane> scotto: we should leverage them
17:44:09 <chlane> we should help them with feedback
17:44:19 <chlane> sarah_higley: still make a PR
17:44:30 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:44:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Working Group news! -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:45 <chlane> we have found a new co-chair
17:45:05 <chlane> Valerie brings technical knowledge
17:45:29 <chlane> valerie excited to help get 1.2 out the door
17:45:50 <chlane> valerie learned a lot
17:46:05 <chlane> engineered regression test framework for APG
17:46:18 <chlane> scotto: congrats and sorry
17:46:27 <chlane> scotto: corry
17:46:40 <chlane> jamesn: lives in same town as jamesn
17:46:48 <chlane> alemeda
17:47:40 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:47:40 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:48:48 <chlane> valerie can close it
17:49:00 <chlane> not blocking combobox changes
17:50:06 <chlane> jamesn: fewer user agens how do we get through cr
17:50:33 <chlane> MichaelC: not before tuesday, brainstorm some proposals
17:50:41 <chlane> jamesn: only 3 user agents
17:51:01 <chlane> MichaelC: if we were maintainging html org we would have that angst
17:51:11 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:51:11 <Zakim> agendum 12 -- -> Do we need a notifications API in ARIA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/832 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:52:19 <jamesn> https://wicg.github.io/aom/notification-api.html
17:52:29 <chlane> scotto: make things we are using live regions now
17:52:52 <StefanS> q+
17:52:55 <chlane> better solution, to pipe what you need to a notification API
17:53:30 <chlane> Matt_King: can browsers implement for live regions
17:53:41 <chlane> live regions could leverage this API to be better
17:54:31 <chlane> scotto: should we have this and also live regions
17:54:54 <chlane> Matt_King: from authoring perspective you can do both
17:55:30 <chlane> Matt_King: gazillion ways the DOM can change hard to enumerate
17:55:44 <chlane> all should be owned by user agent and fed to API for screen reader
17:56:09 <chlane> just as we have the a11y API we need an API for screen readet
17:56:18 <chlane> need reliable queuing
17:56:38 <chlane> if two diff live regions use 2 different ways to render
17:56:58 <chlane> sarah_higley: are you saying we should be pushing a11y apis to change?
17:57:09 <chlane> browser managed interactivity
17:57:42 <chlane> Matt_King:narrator should be able to rely on UIA for anything related to notifications
17:57:57 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.2/#mapping_events_visibility
17:58:01 <chlane> narattor should not be looking at hide/show events
17:58:17 <chlane> jamesn: coreaaam, has events that fire when things happen
17:58:27 <chlane> like when text is removed
17:58:35 <chlane> jamesn: not sufficient, this is what we have
17:58:36 <chlane> now
17:58:41 <jamesn> ack StefanS
17:58:43 <StefanS> https://experience.sap.com/fiori-design-web/invisible-message/
17:58:56 <chlane> StefanS: important to invent messaging framework
17:59:03 <chlane> q chlane
17:59:44 <chlane> StefanS: important to offer service
18:00:01 <jamesn> I think every framework has one of those
18:00:01 <chlane> need guidelines to prevent misuse
18:00:10 <jamesn> https://github.com/adobe/react-spectrum/blob/main/packages/%40react-aria/live-announcer/src/LiveAnnouncer.tsx
18:00:17 <StefanS> q-
18:02:37 <chlane> jamesn: notifications api is from microsoft
18:02:48 <chlane> live regions punted to 1.4
18:02:59 <chlane> will go ahead with or without it
18:03:16 <chlane> jamesn: notifications API is out of scope for ARIA
18:03:30 <chlane> Matt_King:  rrsagent, make minutes
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18:03:38 <chlane>  rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/14-aria-minutes.html chlane
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