14:00:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:00:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-irc
14:01:12 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:08:35 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
14:09:41 <McCool> (joining, but working on something out, but yell out to me if you need my input on something)
14:11:59 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
14:12:43 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Klaus_Hartke, Michael_McCool
14:13:10 <kaz> q+
14:14:01 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
14:14:06 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:14:08 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:14:09 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
14:14:10 <kaz> scribenick: dape
14:14:14 <kaz> topic: Minutes
14:14:18 <dape> TOPIC: Previous minutes
14:14:22 <dape> <Sebastian walks over previous minutes>
14:14:28 <dape> SK: any objections?
14:14:31 <kaz> i|Seb|-> https://www.w3.org/2022/04/06-wot-td-minutes.html Apr-6|
14:14:36 <kaz> s/topic: Minutes//
14:15:09 <dape> -> none -> minutes approved
14:15:19 <dape> TOPIC: Update TD CR roadmap
14:15:24 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1021
14:15:49 <dape> SK: Planned release dates
14:16:11 <dape> ... agreed to have CR candidate May 6
14:16:27 <dape> .. CR transition mid May
14:16:42 <dape> ... that's the new goal
14:16:43 <kaz> s/1021/1021 PR 1021 - Update TD CR dates/
14:16:56 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:16:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:16:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:17:20 <dape> SK: any more comments?
14:17:26 <kaz> q+
14:17:28 <dape> ... none -> propose merging PR
14:17:43 <dape> Kaz: no objection to PR
14:17:57 <dape> ... however should try to keep schedule and revisit updates
14:18:08 <dape> SK: will do
14:18:27 <dape> ack kaz
14:18:52 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
14:19:37 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md
14:19:55 <dape> TOPIC: Check status of wide review
14:20:05 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Accessibility
14:20:10 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/21
14:20:15 <dape> SK: no news
14:20:32 <dape> ... Kaz, can you contact W3C staff ?
14:20:52 <dape> Kaz: ok
14:21:05 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Internationalization
14:21:09 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/171
14:21:15 <dape> SK: ongoing
14:21:22 <dape> SUBTOPIC: TAG
14:21:30 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/715
14:21:42 <dape> SK: active, waiting for response
14:21:57 <dape> ... hope to get feedback during CR phase
14:22:05 <dape> SUBTOPIC: IANA review for Thing Model content type registration
14:22:14 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/931
14:22:30 <dape> SK: plan to setup all information for TD specification document
14:22:42 <dape> ... will include all required information for TM
14:23:07 <dape> ... so far no response
14:23:15 <dape> ... seems a good sign
14:23:58 <dape> TOPIC: PRs
14:24:04 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pulls
14:24:35 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  Default text direction example and assertion #1437
14:24:39 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1437
14:24:57 <dape> SK: checked before meeting?
14:25:08 <dape> ... we are still waiting for feeback
14:25:12 <dape> Ege: Yes
14:25:28 <dape> ... suggest to invite  aphillips again
14:25:44 <dape> SK: Okay. Let's not merge then..
14:25:52 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:25:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:25:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:26:42 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  adds hreflang attribute to links #1449
14:26:47 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1449
14:27:00 <dape> SK: Got approval already from aphillips
14:27:07 <dape> ... new term in link container
14:27:48 <dape> ... e.g., w.r.t. PDF document we can provide language tags
14:28:01 <dape> ... we also updated an example
14:28:53 <dape> ... discussed also multiple languages
14:29:01 <dape> ... in an array form
14:29:26 <dape> ... not possible at the moment. But new drafts in the pipeline
14:29:34 <kaz> s/1449/1449 PR 1449 - adds hreflang attribute to links/
14:29:45 <dape> ... aphillips pointed to this new work
14:30:38 <dape> ... we have an editor-note about this ongoing work in the TD document
14:31:31 <dape> SK: I noticed a minor bug with capitalization hrefLang vs hreflang
14:31:59 <dape> Ege: I can fix it
14:32:21 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  Update Implementation Report - Testfest 2022-03 Results #1451
14:32:25 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1451
14:32:31 <dape> MMC: ongoing work
14:32:42 <dape> ... can merge and add new PRs for updates
14:32:48 <dape> SK: Suggest to merge
14:33:16 <dape> MMC: need to re-run manual assertions
14:33:47 <dape> SK: merged
14:33:59 <dape> SK: What about ThingModels?
14:34:13 <dape> MMC: Not yet done work on TM
14:34:17 <dape> ... need more data
14:34:26 <dape> ... we still miss Ditto data
14:34:45 <dape> ... got PR but need to re-run report
14:36:07 <dape> ... my tool depends on assertion tester
14:36:17 <dape> Ege: will talk with Fady
14:36:33 <dape> MMC: Should look into CVS files..
14:37:05 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  fix: allow uri value only for in field of APIKeySecurityScheme #1452
14:37:09 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1452
14:37:14 <dape> JR: rebased PR
14:37:25 <dape> ... but I think it is not ready yet
14:37:31 <dape> ... encountered some issues
14:37:48 <dape> ... with whitespaces and default values
14:37:58 <kaz> s/1452/1452 PR 1452 - fix: allow uri value only for in field of APIKeySecurityScheme/
14:38:16 <dape> ... I need to figure out the problem
14:38:21 <dape> SK: auto has been removed also
14:38:25 <dape> JS: Correct
14:38:38 <dape> s/JS:/JR:
14:38:55 <dape> JR: Will look into it again
14:39:23 <dape> SK: Can look into this PR next week again
14:39:29 <dape> JR: Okay, fine
14:39:46 <dape> MMC: need someone to understand the ontology
14:40:22 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  Security Consideration Update (bugfix, add ref) #1454
14:40:26 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1454
14:40:30 <dape> MMC: minor fixes
14:40:38 <dape> ... references etc
14:41:01 <dape> SK: Looks good -> merging
14:41:28 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  Add clarification on null schema #1457
14:41:31 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1457
14:41:48 <dape> SK: PR describes what is "null" and when to use it
14:43:14 <dape> Ege: found that this description is duplicated
14:43:20 <dape> SK: That is always the case
14:43:44 <dape> ... td-validation and jsonschema
14:44:02 <dape> Ege: Does this mean the documents are out of sync?
14:44:08 <dape> SK: Don't think so
14:44:26 <dape> ... but maybe it's good to re-check that
14:45:01 <dape> SK: PR looks good
14:45:06 <dape> ... any objections?
14:45:13 <dape> ... none -> merging
14:45:58 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  adds hreflang attribute to links #1449  (Cont.)
14:46:03 <kaz> s/1454/1454 PR 1454 - Security Consideration Update (bugfix, add ref)/
14:46:09 <dape> Ege: fixed capitalization
14:46:14 <dape> SK: Suggest to merge
14:46:29 <kaz> s/1457/1457 PR 1457 - Add clarification on null schema/
14:46:49 <dape> ... grr, there are conflicts
14:47:22 <kaz> i|fixed cap|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1449 PR 1449 - adds hreflang attribute to links|
14:47:27 <dape> JR: Seems to be related to the previous PR from McCool
14:49:58 <dape> <SK resolves the conflicts>
14:50:31 <dape> SK: no objections -> let's merge
14:51:39 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  Constraining context value according to new algorithm #1458
14:51:43 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1458
14:51:58 <dape> SK: scripting update?
14:52:20 <dape> Ege: old vs new context
14:52:47 <dape> ... allow both.. only if old one is first
14:52:55 <dape> ... changes in JSON schema file
14:53:04 <dape> ... not a normative change
14:53:20 <dape> SK/Ege: removed temporary  context
14:53:47 <dape> SK: Suggest to merge
14:53:58 <dape> ... done
14:54:21 <dape> SUBTOPIC:  replaces 'well-formed language tag' with 'valid language tag' (new) #1465
14:54:26 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1465
14:54:42 <dape> SK: PR clarifies form of language tag
14:55:20 <dape> ... assertion is updated also
14:55:22 <kaz> s/1458/1458 PR 1458 - Constraining context value according to new algorithm/
14:55:41 <dape> ... points out that we require valid language tag
14:55:49 <kaz> s/1465/1465 PR 1465 - replaces 'well-formed language tag' with 'valid language tag' (new)/
14:55:56 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:56:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:56:23 <dape> SK: new text also for validation
14:57:12 <JudyB> JudyB has joined #wot-td
14:57:15 <cris> q+
14:57:31 <dape> CA: question about minimal validation
14:57:43 <dape> ... without network connection ?
14:57:54 <dape> ... do we have a list of valid tags
14:58:19 <dape> SK: It is more about grammar than a list
14:58:39 <dape> ack cris
14:58:54 <dape> ... like a pattern
14:59:42 <dape> CA: Not sure if we should put it as minimum validation
14:59:52 <dape> ... useful for human
15:00:03 <dape> ... not so much useful for devices
15:01:01 <dape> DP: not sure if pattern is useful
15:01:11 <dape> SK: check can also be done by JSON schema
15:01:22 <dape> CA: Yes
15:01:48 <dape> SK: not mandatory
15:01:58 <dape> ... just kind of guideline
15:02:49 <dape> CA: Got SKs comment
15:03:44 <dape> SK: Yep, more a hint with "can be"
15:04:00 <dape> CA: The assertion bothers me
15:04:05 <dape> ... means MUST
15:04:58 <dape> SK: addison asked us to use "valid" instead of "well-formed"
15:06:54 <kaz> q?
15:07:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:07:48 <dape> Ege: In JSON schema one can put regular expressions
15:07:52 <dape> ... I can add this
15:08:19 <dape> ... not sure if resource constrained consumer should do that
15:09:01 <dape> CA: I think doing this validation does not give you a lot
15:09:11 <dape> ... that is my main concern
15:09:41 <dape> Ege: for node-wot the developer is responsible
15:10:01 <dape> ... that's how I see it
15:10:27 <dape> CA: I agree
15:10:32 <dape> .... but we have an assertion
15:10:46 <dape> ... node-wot should say not-impl ?
15:10:54 <kaz> q?
15:11:34 <dape> Ege: if all examples are satisfying this .. is it not-impl or pass?
15:11:44 <dape> ... I think it is valid
15:12:24 <dape> ... like password in description check
15:12:33 <dape> ... node-wot cannot check this
15:12:55 <kaz> q+ to mention Michael Cooper has responded to Issue 21 https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/21 (after concluding the current topic)
15:13:08 <dape> ... we should make such assertions more clear
15:13:58 <dape> MMC: manually testable .. different to manually assertion
15:14:21 <dape> Ege: Yes, like in Section 8.1
15:14:40 <dape> MMC: In theory testable
15:14:58 <dape> ... with live instances
15:15:07 <dape> ... Section 9
15:15:31 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/events/2022.03.Online/TD/manual.csv#L57
15:15:48 <Ege> For all security schemes, any private keys, passwords, or other sensitive information directly providing access should be shared and stored out-of-band and MUST NOT be stored in the TD.
15:16:16 <dape> Ege: Chapter 5.3.3.1
15:16:41 <dape> ... difficult to check
15:17:15 <dape> MMC: A system that does that.. does not satisfy spec
15:17:24 <kaz> i|Chapter 5|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1465.html#securityscheme Preview - 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme|
15:17:53 <dape> CA: for node-wot ... developer might put password
15:18:03 <dape> ... node-wot cannot check
15:18:35 <dape> MMC: developer is not supposed to do that
15:19:02 <dape> ... should re-think some assertion if to vague
15:19:37 <dape> SK: coming back to minimal validation
15:19:45 <dape> ... should we keep it in 6.5.1
15:19:55 <dape> MMC: seems kind of specific
15:20:17 <dape> ... wondering.. whether this is too much detail
15:20:30 <dape> ... why we do not mention other things?
15:20:47 <dape> SK: Correct, and we can use JSON schema check
15:21:16 <dape> MMC: "for example" is like a spot check
15:21:30 <dape> ... we should have a final list of checks
15:21:53 <dape> ... moving things/check to schema is good also
15:22:28 <dape> SK: Remove this minimal check?
15:22:42 <dape> MMC: no, we should be explicit
15:23:06 <dape> ... complete this list ... having a finite list
15:23:20 <dape> Ege: do we expect all consumers to do this checks?
15:23:32 <dape> MMC: Or under "basic validation"
15:23:54 <dape> s/this checks?/these checks?
15:24:15 <dape> Ege: I think we should agree on definition of "minimal validation"
15:24:36 <dape> MMC: definitely JSON Schema
15:24:47 <dape> ... could stop there ...
15:25:11 <dape> Ege: minimal is JSON
15:25:44 <dape> ... only some spot checks ... not sure about JSON schema
15:25:59 <dape> MMC: Mhh, okay.. JSON schema should be under "basic"
15:26:05 <cris> q+
15:26:14 <kaz> q- later
15:26:40 <JudyB> JudyB has left #wot-td
15:27:17 <dape> CA: I think at minimal ... from usability
15:27:45 <dape> ... connecting to a Web thing is minimal validation
15:27:52 <mjk> q?
15:28:00 <Ege> q+
15:28:01 <kaz> ack c
15:28:04 <kaz> q- later
15:28:22 <kaz> scribenick: cris
15:28:37 <cris> seb: we are taking time talking about validation
15:29:17 <cris> ... but back to the point, I would leave the validation process as it is and defer the discussion to 2.0
15:29:19 <McCool> q+
15:29:35 <kaz> q- later
15:29:37 <kaz> ack Ege
15:29:50 <cris> ... about the issue I would remove the sentence added in the minimal chapter
15:29:50 <Ege> q+
15:29:57 <kaz> ack mc
15:29:59 <cris> mc: section does not contains any assertion
15:30:01 <kaz> q- later
15:30:07 <cris> ... we can mark as informative
15:30:23 <cris> ... plus I would remove also the last sentence which is mention about tagging assertions
15:30:41 <cris> ... having some kind of agreement about terms is important
15:31:04 <cris> ... We also cited that sections in discovery
15:31:14 <kaz> ack e
15:31:16 <cris> ... therefore I would not remove it
15:31:49 <cris> ege: about what cristiano said. I think it would be ok thinking from the point of view of a consumer
15:32:21 <cris> mc: in a constraint device the process is to check for particular things
15:33:38 <cris> ege: json schema checks can be implemented statically efficiently
15:34:05 <cris> mc: we might explain that small devices does not do a full validation.
15:34:11 <cris> seb: ok back to PR
15:34:16 <cris> ... I remove the validation part
15:34:42 <cris> ... everything else was not controversial I would merge this
15:35:03 <cris> mc: remember to remove the final sentence about issue taging
15:35:13 <cris> seb: I'll create an issue about that
15:35:22 <kaz> s/taging/tagging/
15:37:35 <kaz> q?
15:37:46 <kaz> ack k
15:37:46 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to mention Michael Cooper has responded to Issue 21 https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/21 (after concluding the current topic)
15:38:07 <cris> kaz: before next item, we received an update from the Accessibility Review.
15:38:16 <cris> seb: ok
15:38:19 <kaz> i/you wanted/topic: Accessibility review (revisited)/
15:38:26 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:38:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:38:47 <cris> topic: issues
15:39:01 <cris> subtopic: issue #1407
15:39:45 <cris> jan: when working with thing model conversion tools, it is a bit difficult to handle composed thing models
15:39:59 <cris> ... you must store them somewhere
15:40:26 <cris> ... the issue wants to discussion an addtional mechanism for tm composition
15:41:26 <mjk> q?
15:41:42 <McCool> q+
15:41:52 <cris> q+
15:42:00 <kaz> qq+ mjk
15:42:03 <cris> mk: I'm also doing the same thing
15:42:03 <kaz> ack mjk
15:42:03 <Zakim> mjk, you wanted to react to kaz
15:42:23 <kaz> s/mjk, you wanted to react to kaz//
15:43:21 <cris> jan: my original proposal was to use the tm:submodels attribute to store them
15:43:40 <cris> ... but it did work out
15:44:45 <cris> mk: how did you model a device that has different devices inside?
15:45:04 <cris> mc: HomeAssistant has this hierarchy
15:45:16 <cris> ... and it is not easy to map to WoT TDs
15:47:01 <cris> ... we need more experience on building system
15:47:03 <cris> q?
15:47:09 <cris> ack m
15:47:10 <McCool> ack m
15:47:21 <cris> seb: I understand your motivation
15:47:36 <cris> ... but TMs are for code re-use
15:48:03 <kaz> i|when working|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1407 Issue 1407 - Additional composition mechanism for Thing Models|
15:48:22 <Ege> q+
15:48:24 <cris> ... maybe in a closed system
15:48:39 <kaz> q+
15:49:08 <cris> ... in your proposal how TMs are handled?
15:49:26 <cris> ... looks like a TM repository
15:49:41 <cris> ... serialized in the json structure
15:49:59 <cris> ... also should we discuss this now or defer for 2.0?
15:50:22 <cris> jan: I would be fine for deferring or putting inside another document
15:50:46 <Ege> ack c
15:50:47 <McCool> q?
15:53:04 <cris> cris: same thing happens when you try to instantiate a TD from a TM that is composed by different part
15:53:19 <cris> ... is not easy to handle links to particular files
15:53:31 <kaz> ack e
15:53:39 <cris> ege: this is also related to json schema
15:53:45 <cris> ... $ref
15:54:05 <McCool> q+
15:54:07 <cris> ...json schema is very strict about the meaning of $ref
15:54:42 <cris> ... in particular, $ref is just an id not an actual location
15:55:28 <cris> ... we might solve this using an algorithm for serialization
15:56:06 <cris> ... like ajv and other implementations of json schema do
15:56:17 <cris> q?
15:57:06 <cris> kaz: in short we should defer this proposal to 2.0. We are already during the extended charter period. We need to wrap up and close features
15:57:44 <kaz> ack k
15:57:59 <cris> mc: I agree, we didn't have time to understand the problem
15:58:13 <cris> ... we need to put more work on this
15:58:24 <cris> seb: ok
15:59:06 <cris> ... deferred, but we'll keep an eye on this
15:59:16 <cris> mc: maybe the IG can publish a note
15:59:21 <kaz> s/close features/close features. This proposal is potentially related to the proposal of grouping devices by ECHONET as well. So we should rather clarify the use case for Ver. 2.0 specs./
15:59:24 <cris> ... about this expiremental feature
15:59:41 <kaz> q?
15:59:45 <kaz> ack m
16:00:44 <cris> seb: next week TD call confirmed
16:00:52 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:00:56 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1437 btw he approved it
16:01:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:22:03 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
16:36:45 <kaz> s/[adjourned]//
16:36:59 <kaz> i/https/topic: AOB/
16:37:22 <kaz> s/btw he approved it/has been approved by Addison, btw./
16:37:27 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:37:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:37:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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