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13:23:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/12-ag-irc
13:23:12 <Chuck> rrsagent, make logs world
13:23:19 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:23:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/12-ag-minutes.html Chuck
13:23:28 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
13:23:35 <Chuck> Zakim, start meeting
13:23:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:23:37 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
13:23:44 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2022-04-12
13:23:58 <Chuck> agenda+ Silver Research (Jeanne, 45 minutes)
13:24:08 <Chuck> agenda+ Continue WCAG SC Breakdown Exercise (45 minutes)
13:24:20 <Chuck> agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Focus appearance https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-focus-appearance-enhanced2/ (30 minutes)
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14:53:00 <Fazio> present+
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14:58:19 <Chuck> present+
14:58:54 <StefanS> present+
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15:00:16 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
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15:01:06 <Lauriat> Present+
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15:01:13 <mbgower> present+
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15:01:47 <JakeAbma> present+
15:02:30 <kirkwood> present+
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15:02:55 <Jennie_Delisi> Scribing command cheat sheet if helpful! https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribing_Commands_and_Related_Info
15:03:22 <Nicaise> present+
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15:03:46 <Chuck> zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShawnT
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15:04:03 <Chuck> zakim, pick a scribe
15:04:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Fazio
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15:04:38 <GreggVan> present+
15:04:41 <Fazio> scribe: Fazio
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15:05:45 <Fazio> Chuck is flying solo today
15:05:53 <Fazio> present+
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15:06:27 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:06:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Silver Research (Jeanne, 45 minutes) -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:07:01 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19UNBssRa0wk2ZXMyxv4PISLpYh50g5DRQwGycEzmy24/
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15:07:21 <AWK> +AWK
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15:07:32 <Azlan> present+
15:08:40 <Fazio> Jeanne: 2016 - 2017 research of Silver requirements is provided in above slide deck link for historical context
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15:09:07 <MelanieP> present+
15:09:50 <Fazio> Jeanne: 12 months of research partnered with academia and corporate research
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15:10:25 <Jaunita_George> Present+
15:10:58 <Fazio> Jeanne: identified high priority questions contacted academic and corporate researchers. Got a lot of feedback
15:12:07 <JudyB> present+
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15:13:27 <Fazio> Jeanne: SC's were categorized by ease to learn, use, teach
15:13:35 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
15:14:53 <KimD> present+
15:15:04 <Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19UNBssRa0wk2ZXMyxv4PISLpYh50g5DRQwGycEzmy24/
15:15:38 <Fazio> Jeanne: need for plain language, improve flexibility of guidance, AAA is useful but needs improvement, more advice needed for AT
15:15:40 <Chuck> Laurat beat me
15:16:04 <Fazio> Jeanne: put user needs first, improve usability of WCAG
15:17:13 <Fazio> Jeanne: Non w3c a11y resources are used more frequently than WCAG
15:20:50 <Fazio> Jeanne: Job stories were written (31 roles)
15:22:20 <Fazio> Jeanne: Important part: invited people from each role was very holistic for research
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15:28:17 <Fazio> Jeanne: True/False measurement must be changed
15:28:26 <ShawnT> This is awesome! Can we share this presentation with colleagues?
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15:29:31 <Lauriat> qv?
15:29:43 <mbgower> Thanks for the reminder of the background, Jeanne!
15:29:43 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea
15:30:29 <kirkwood> q+
15:30:33 <mbgower> q+ to say is Silver at a point where there is value in reassessing at a larger scale like this?
15:30:33 <Lauriat> q+ to respond
15:30:49 <Chuck> ack kirk
15:31:14 <Fazio> Juanita: Lawyers don't have enough tech understanding for wcag
15:31:58 <Wilco> +1
15:31:58 <Detlev> q+ to say that I am not sure how revisting 3 year old Silver ambitions this brings us closer to answering the core questions how we set a manageable framework for WCAG 3
15:32:47 <Fazio> Jeanne: People really love WCAG guidance
15:32:53 <Chuck> q+ to try and answer
15:32:59 <Chuck> ack mb
15:32:59 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say is Silver at a point where there is value in reassessing at a larger scale like this?
15:33:23 <ShawnT> I'd like to see the papers in HTML format (willing to help convert it)!
15:33:26 <Lauriat> q-
15:34:09 <Fazio> Mike: updated feedback on change of perspectives from beginning of silver till now might be useful
15:34:25 <mbgower> not suggesting doing another 18 months!
15:34:37 <Lauriat> q+ to respond to mbgower with our stakeholder process
15:34:37 <Fazio> Jeanne: maybe small version of that might be possible
15:34:38 <Jaunita_George> +1 to Shawn and I can help too
15:34:44 <kirkwood> great work
15:35:44 <Chuck> ack detlev
15:35:44 <Zakim> Detlev, you wanted to say that I am not sure how revisting 3 year old Silver ambitions this brings us closer to answering the core questions how we set a manageable framework for
15:35:47 <Zakim> ... WCAG 3
15:36:17 <Fazio> Detlev: Not sure feedback on current perspectives will be helpful
15:37:31 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:37:31 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to try and answer
15:38:24 <Fazio> Chuck:WCAG 2 likely had similar experience, maybe leverage lessons, revisiting all research might be counterproductive
15:38:29 <Chuck> ack Lau
15:38:29 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to respond to mbgower with our stakeholder process
15:38:33 <GreggVan> q+
15:39:01 <Chuck> +1 to Lauriat
15:39:17 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:39:20 <Fazio> Shawn: validating approach will be useful
15:39:27 <Jennie_Delisi> +1 to Shawn L!
15:40:14 <Chuck> q?
15:41:13 <Detlev> fair enough, Jeanne...
15:41:16 <Fazio> Jeanne: build on progress don't reopen issues
15:41:26 <sarahhorton> +1 Jeanne
15:41:37 <Lauriat> +1
15:41:42 <Chuck> +1
15:42:04 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 2
15:42:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Continue WCAG SC Breakdown Exercise (45 minutes) -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:44:46 <Azlan> I am going to have to leave in a moment due to child care needs
15:45:56 <Chuck> Presentation slides:  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sGLpBwAAsZfhANpWO3jo0zMOdwDtckhjSmsYpisQfFU/edit#slide=id.p
15:46:06 <Chuck> Main Functional / User Needs, and Outcomes:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/16ZeCqTRTY0lmWvp1Xv_wO0iH1OzyECBa1UXQ_UeocjQ/edit#heading=h.4jiwp8jpc143
15:46:27 <Chuck> TEMPLATE WCAG 2.x guideline breakdown:  TEMPLATE WCAG 2.x guideline breakdown - Google Docs
15:46:42 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MGGgqgeL779aJu7iNuXQMHgJygV7l6GouM7--5ABJ5U/edit#heading=h.9oxnj9cw11i8
15:46:52 <Chuck> Condition (subjective) test:  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1b5xHQWBzoYdKp7BfPgIUBCpz-yaDOx_kSq_HlQxcFh0/edit#slide=id.g115ec01aa81_0_39
15:47:16 <Chuck> Example of a completed(ish) one:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Fdy-o7DKfWwzxk1AJbAGGedtE4VeJ_f6tNV_4Og7WU/edit#heading=h.jz8eg0yt4no8
15:47:35 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pbgQOxtpaAqUQs98ZPVF8cCaOFnFNLWwF3LmAr1YfLQ/edit
15:48:50 <Chuck> Room 2 - 2.4.3 Focus Order (Looks pretty done): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gBGEKABwHzHsxjrFVbf0hqRvwXYuAhpKMWYNlVpbwf0/edit#heading=h.vx20z4iqr83a
15:49:17 <Chuck> Room 3 - 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1shRC-AhxeKBpP4NxecV7Gv2BVRCHxYdRxU-eJViZ4VA/edit#heading=h.vx20z4iqr83a
15:49:48 <Chuck> Room 4 - 3.1.1 Language of Page: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rrTfFW2vxSybE2neI9SN1h8WFA4QfoiiLFahEAvTO7A/edit
15:50:06 <Chuck> Room 5 - 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnz5QmQBdikEpogEo-czNRzLX46Bm3fYog5V9hwnalU/edit
15:50:23 <Chuck> Room 6 - 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zSgYcLuXZ5E-tWSuvWpTBmtaso3eGxSfwIsnOkfkJWY/edit
15:53:59 <kirkwood> Chuck, do you have a list of them. We are finished with ours.
15:54:25 <kirkwood> (from room 6)
15:55:24 <Chuck> Room 1 - 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pbgQOxtpaAqUQs98ZPVF8cCaOFnFNLWwF3LmAr1YfLQ/edit
16:04:22 <Jen_G> Jen_G has joined #ag
16:04:43 <Jen_G> Present+
16:04:52 <jeanne> Non-Text Contrast (new doc) -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/19NOxEoCRhPCvP0zV0w6PqoT8WB-8O_g5vZhha9oG5eA/edit
16:05:03 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
16:05:30 <Chuck> Jeanne, I have made note of new doc in my personal notes.
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16:19:22 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
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16:19:39 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:21:34 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
16:22:01 <mbgower> q+ to say what we found in group 1
16:22:03 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Share experiences? Problems with docs? Breakouts?
16:22:05 <Chuck> ack mb
16:22:05 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say what we found in group 1
16:22:38 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Covering sensory, reorienting to notes from last time, more explicit notes would help
16:22:54 <sarahhorton> ... will work outside group time to proceed
16:23:10 <Chuck> If you are able, please leave your breakout room and return to the main channel, or leave call and return to call.  Thanks.
16:23:40 <Chuck> q?
16:23:40 <sarahhorton> ... work on test types
16:23:55 <kirkwood> present+
16:24:09 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Other observations? Jeanne, new doc? Were there challenges?
16:24:52 <Detlev> q+
16:24:58 <sarahhorton> ... going to look at this, set of folders, will be public, decide whether to continue as part of call or take outside of scope of call
16:25:10 <Chuck> ack detlev
16:25:11 <sarahhorton> ... have advanced migration, thank you
16:25:52 <sarahhorton> Detlev: Focus order, how to do next step, important aspect of focus order is focus management, issue current under focus order for want of better option
16:26:27 <sarahhorton> ... calls for new SC or guideline, instead have put as sub-guideline, but might need to be main with focus order as sub-guideline
16:26:43 <sarahhorton> ... can we spot opportunities and reorder?
16:26:52 <Chuck> +1 Detlev
16:27:00 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Will be reviewing, agree
16:27:07 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
16:27:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Silver Research (Jeanne, 45 minutes) -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:27:38 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 3
16:27:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- WCAG 2.2 Focus appearance https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-focus-appearance-enhanced2/ (30 minutes) -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:27:45 <Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-focus-appearance-enhanced2/results
16:27:54 <Chuck> TOPIC:  Question 1 - Out-of-viewport content #2204
16:28:01 <Chuck> Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 1 - Out-of-viewport content #2204
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16:28:28 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Reads question and responses
16:30:42 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Question focus, what if someone scrolls out of view and item doesn't take focus because scrolled out of view
16:31:33 <Chuck> q?
16:31:34 <sarahhorton> ... agreement if something with focus does not appear in viewport should be fail, but use of "mechanism" allow scroll to bring back into view, make explicitly if author work makes something not appear in viewport
16:31:54 <sarahhorton> ... author hasn't obscured, coded so restricts from getting focus
16:32:11 <Chuck> q+
16:32:12 <sarahhorton> ... not entire hidden due to author-created content
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16:32:36 <sarahhorton> ... response, can revamp to make more official
16:33:10 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Opinion could be amended response, not changing files, just changing response?
16:33:26 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Change "by" to "due to" in files
16:33:36 <Chuck> q?
16:33:37 <MelanieP> q+ to say I didn't respond to the survey but I don't think the scenario is already covered by 2.4.7
16:33:38 <GN015> q+ to say that " a mode of operation where the keyboard focus indicator is visibl"
16:33:46 <Chuck> ack ach
16:33:49 <Chuck> ack mel
16:33:49 <Zakim> MelanieP, you wanted to say I didn't respond to the survey but I don't think the scenario is already covered by 2.4.7
16:34:22 <sarahhorton> MelanieP: Disagree with response in survey, agree with Mike's amended response (I think)
16:34:23 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:34:28 <sarahhorton> ... yes
16:34:51 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Take longer response, make into pithy response, get Alastair to modify proposed response
16:35:04 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Can we get resolution here?
16:35:09 <Chuck> q?
16:35:11 <Chuck> ack GN
16:35:11 <Zakim> GN, you wanted to say that " a mode of operation where the keyboard focus indicator is visibl"
16:36:10 <sarahhorton> GN015: Different understanding, focus indicator always visible no matter what you do, does not say there's a way to make it visible, understand requirement differently, focus indicator isn't covered by scrolling as mode
16:36:13 <mbgower> q+
16:36:21 <Chuck> ack mb
16:36:27 <sarahhorton> ... don't follow interpretation
16:36:50 <Chuck> q?
16:36:57 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Added SC to make explicit that users don't have to scroll to get item into focus
16:37:11 <sarahhorton> ... loop back at end of call, will try to revamp
16:37:29 <Chuck> TOPIC:  Question 2 - Replace "encompasses" with "encloses"
16:37:36 <Chuck> Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 2 - Replace "encompasses" with "encloses
16:38:00 <sarahhorton> Chuck: [reads question and responses]
16:39:24 <Chuck> q?
16:39:25 <sarahhorton> GN015: Regardless might always be dotted or dashed, not bound to which word but something that says solid line
16:39:31 <mbgower> q+ to say this does
16:39:34 <Chuck> ack mb
16:39:34 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say this does
16:39:51 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Definition includes that now, solidity bounds or surrounds
16:40:18 <sarahhorton> ... made clear in understanding doc
16:40:26 <Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Replace "encompasses" with "encloses" for Focus Appearance
16:40:30 <sarahhorton> s/solidity/solidly
16:40:36 <Chuck> +1
16:40:38 <ShawnT> +1
16:40:39 <laura> +1
16:40:45 <mbgower> +1
16:40:47 <Francis_Storr> +1
16:40:50 <Wilco> 0, still disagree with the rewrite
16:41:05 <Wilco> there will be one, not on this
16:41:22 <sarahhorton> RESOLUTION: Replace "encompasses" with "encloses" for Focus Appearance
16:41:38 <Chuck> TOPIC:  Question 3 - Updated understanding document for "encloses"
16:41:38 <JakeAbma> +1
16:41:46 <Chuck> Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 3 - Updated understanding document for "encloses"
16:42:05 <sarahhorton> Chuck: [reads question and response]
16:42:18 <mbgower> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2283/files#diff-5141b6e15e630ef38c219252b621af594f043b323334776f948912eb043a05f1
16:44:08 <mbgower> q+
16:44:53 <Chuck> ack mb
16:45:27 <sarahhorton> mbgower: response to Jonathan, covered by understanding doc, needs to contrast against outside and component
16:45:37 <Chuck> q?
16:46:02 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Walk through adjustments in diff
16:46:17 <Chuck> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2283/files#diff-5141b6e15e630ef38c219252b621af594f043b323334776f948912eb043a05f1
16:47:06 <sarahhorton> mbgower: [walks through changes shown in diff]
16:49:08 <sarahhorton> ... change to colors to match language in first part, to address concept of ensuring abutting component, problem of only measuring contrast against component, 1 CSS px would fail
16:49:19 <sarahhorton> ... always measuring against adjacent colors, language works
16:49:31 <Detlev> q+
16:49:33 <sarahhorton> ... without color contrast, can use 2px
16:49:42 <Chuck> ack detlev
16:49:57 <sarahhorton> Detlev: Need to contrast to component and to background?
16:50:12 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Yes, or be 2 CSS px thick
16:50:54 <sarahhorton> ... stars ranking, second has indicator, abutting star, no offset, must be 3:1 against both exterior, interior, or thicker
16:51:34 <sarahhorton> ... when offset, if same orange as star would not contrast against component, but not abutting so shouldn't fail
16:51:46 <Chuck> q?
16:51:49 <Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION:  Accepted the amended document to include "encloses"
16:52:34 <sarahhorton> mbgower: minimum bounding box, assumptions not addressed, box not defined term, assumption that box isn't skewed
16:52:43 <GN015> q+ to ask whether non-text contrast needs a remark for focus indicator; or is a failure on adjacent colors supposed to fail both SC?"
16:53:04 <sarahhorton> ... redefined
16:53:12 <Chuck> ack GN
16:53:12 <Zakim> GN, you wanted to ask whether non-text contrast needs a remark for focus indicator; or is a failure on adjacent colors supposed to fail both SC?"
16:53:46 <sarahhorton> GN015: Adjacent colors already required, should focus appearance also fail
16:54:34 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Addressed in understanding, non-text contrast, this is about focus indicator specifically, when FI doesn't abut, component exists without focus, still has to contrast
16:54:44 <sarahhorton> GN015: Understand focus indicator as a component
16:54:58 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Difference of interpretation intent to close differences
16:55:11 <sarahhorton> GN015: Fail focus appears, not non-text contrast
16:55:20 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Depends on compoent
16:55:24 <Wilco> q+
16:55:31 <sarahhorton> s/compoent/component
16:56:04 <sarahhorton> mbgower: strange thing, user agents adding pixels to prevent anti-aliasing, even in SVG
16:56:21 <sarahhorton> ... could magnify to get pixel to side, added by UA
16:56:30 <sarahhorton> ... added to definition
16:56:38 <Chuck> ack Wilco
16:56:57 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Rotating box, horizontally aligned might be better
16:57:10 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Wanted to specify not tilted, open to suggestions
16:57:25 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Aligned to x and y access (in ACT rules)
16:57:31 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Will incorporate
16:57:41 <Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION:  Accepted the amended documents to include "encloses"
16:57:52 <Wilco> s/access/axis
16:58:19 <Wilco> q+
16:58:49 <Wilco> ack w
16:58:58 <MelanieP> +1 to Wilco. I like where Mike is going, but this is too much with no time to consider
16:58:58 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Substantial change, not enough people to poll
16:59:10 <Chuck> ack Wilco
16:59:37 <GN015> present+
16:59:38 <laura> bye
16:59:58 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/12-ag-minutes.html sarahhorton
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17:00:26 <mbgower> if folks can please take some time to review the PR I'd appreciate it. There are substantial chagnes in the understanding document.
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