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13:33:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/11-personalization-irc
13:33:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:33:47 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2022
13:34:04 <sharon> zakim, clear agenda
13:34:04 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:34:24 <sharon> chair: sharon
13:34:38 <sharon> agenda?
13:35:37 <sharon> agenda+ Logistics: Easter/Passover/Ramadan holiday season
13:35:42 <sharon> agenda+ Naming progress https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/9
13:36:02 <sharon> agenda+ Content Module Implementations Status
13:36:25 <sharon> agenda+ Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute (multi-value vs single value) https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/203
13:36:45 <sharon> agenda+ Follow-up on i18n issue #144 https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
13:37:05 <sharon> agenda+ Issue 202 regarding Visible Indicators on 2.2 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/202
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13:37:19 <sharon> agenda+ Planning future COGA meetings on Our Other Two Modules
13:37:24 <sharon> agenda?
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14:02:18 <janina_> present+
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14:02:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
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14:02:32 <CharlesL1> present+
14:02:41 <Lisa> present+
14:02:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:02:50 <Lisa> (but I need to leave a bit early)
14:02:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:02:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Logistics: Easter/Passover/Ramadan holiday season -- taken up [from sharon]
14:03:18 <Lisa> I wont be around. taking it off
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14:03:35 <mike_beganyi> present+
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14:04:01 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
14:04:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> Janina: Our focus should be the additions to the document that came up in email
14:04:47 <Matthew_Atkinson> I _might_ be able to make it, not 100% sure. Officially it's a holiday here, though if I am actually at home I would tend to come.
14:05:14 <becky> present+
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14:05:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> Decided: We will meet.
14:06:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> RESOLVED: We will meet next week as usual, for those members not attending, have a good vacation.
14:06:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:06:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Naming progress https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/9 -- taken up [from sharon]
14:07:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: I understand we are moving forward with WAI-Adapt
14:07:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: There was some additional discussion with Judy on the WAI-CC call
14:08:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: It was agreed that we do not need an expansion, but we do want a pithy phrase to put on the slide where we introduce the standard at TPAC
14:08:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we suggested phrases as well
14:10:02 <sharon> q?
14:11:37 <Matthew_Atkinson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/11-personalization-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson
14:13:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: We've got all the pieces, someone needs to capture that 'pithy phrase'
14:14:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: I will go through the lists and get the phrase.
14:14:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:14:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Content Module Implementations Status -- taken up [from sharon]
14:15:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: Discussions with Phill at IBM are going well, need to clarify further.
14:15:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: With access-board we got commitment to markup the ADA-complaint form.
14:17:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we need content and two user-agent implementations.
14:17:07 <Lisa> q+
14:17:52 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:18:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: UserWay is going to be a renderer of this new markup.
14:18:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: A reminder, renderers should render any markup.
14:18:37 <sharon> ack Lisa
14:19:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: Ayeleth created a git long ago, she created a script. It featured a button to show symbols
14:20:01 <Matthew_Atkinson> I think the link is: https://github.com/ayelet-seeman/coga.personalisation (there are several repos). Also we linked the HTML example in our TPAC talk.
14:20:41 <Matthew_Atkinson> https://rawgit.com/ayelet-seeman/coga.personalisation/demo/conactUs.html
14:20:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... so it is both a markup and a rendering.
14:21:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a shopping cart mockup
14:21:04 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:21:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: What exactly does IBM expect to render, if they do render?
14:21:59 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:22:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:22:16 <sharon> q?
14:22:27 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:22:34 <janina_> q+
14:23:09 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:24:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Given that the specification has x number of 'must' statements, imagine we number those statements
14:26:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... then for each x(1) must statement, we must show two independent user-agent rendering implementations
14:26:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there can be one content source that both render
14:28:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the ADA complaint form being marked up would even be worthy of a press release
14:28:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... as well as an IBM employment form
14:28:15 <sharon> q?
14:28:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: +1. It's very exciting.
14:28:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Press reports are not as interested in the renderer as the content.
14:29:18 <sharon> ack janina
14:30:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: We need in writing the exact terms from Bliss. We may need to go back and review aspects of the W3C process
14:31:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... keep in mind this is enabling many various registries of symbols
14:31:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: We have an excel spreadsheet, linked in the Wiki
14:32:51 <Lisa> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Implementations-of-Semantics#implementations-in-development
14:33:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this is the link to the spreadsheet, on the wiki
14:33:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... you can see that Vodafone and Atos made implementation pages
14:34:08 <sharon> q?
14:35:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: What about wikipedia? I may still have contacts to developers over there.
14:36:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Bliss symbols should at minimum give us a dump periodically in PDF format
14:36:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we would want a commitment from them to continue to maintain this registry
14:37:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a best case scenario is that Bliss will commit to retaining a Bliss registry on W3.org
14:37:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> Roy_: I did speak with them about that topic, I will find the email.
14:38:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:38:05 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute (multi-value vs single value) https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/203 -- taken up [from
14:38:08 <Zakim> ... sharon]
14:38:55 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:39:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: Citing the note:
14:39:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Which of these is correct? The English "ham sandwich" or the Spanish, which literally translates to "sandwich of ham." In the case sentence and object structure of a symbolic representation, does it matter?
14:39:56 <sharon> q?
14:39:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> <span lang="en" data-symbol="16223 16718">ham sandwich</span>
14:40:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> <span lang="es" data-symbol="16718 12324 16223">sándwich de jamón</span>
14:40:32 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:40:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Janina notes that answering this question is answering a question from Apple, worth replying to
14:41:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: We should have replied long ago
14:42:37 <Lisa> q+
14:42:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: The data symbol attribute can potentially take multiple values.
14:43:04 <sharon> ack Lisa
14:43:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: We have a page in German and in Swedish (the cup of tea page)
14:44:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... see there that 'cup of tea' can be combined to become a single symbol
14:44:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and sometimes you need multiple symbols
14:44:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: If multiple symbols are listed, are they meant to be construed as combining to denote a single symbol?
14:45:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lisa: Depends on the symbol set
14:45:13 <janina_> qq+
14:45:53 <sharon> q?
14:46:09 <sharon> ack janina
14:46:09 <Zakim> janina_, you wanted to react to Lisa
14:46:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Apple does also make authoring tools, so they might get involved with symbol authoring
14:47:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... my inclination is to (a) apologize to James for the delay (b) point him to the ongoing discussion (c) mention the rendering opportunity and (d) the registry need
14:47:26 <CharlesL1> q+
14:47:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but then point out (e) it is not translation, just different uses of symbols
14:47:39 <sharon> ack CharlesL1
14:47:41 <Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to janina_ ACKing and clarifying with James.
14:47:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL1: Rendering should be 1:1. Symbol '12345' is always a dog, etc.
14:49:11 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:49:26 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:49:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I do not think the HTML developer will do the markup. It will be a Bliss symbol expert hired to make the page Bliss-symbol-friendly.
14:49:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: Does that imply that our system is 'broken', since it requires a Bliss SME?
14:51:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: Respectfully disagree. It should be easy to look-up symbol values and put them in.
14:51:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... no need to know in advance the end-user's preferred set of symbols
14:51:25 <sharon> q?
14:52:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: The mapping challenge falls on the AAC Symbol Set provider. Then, if they are lacking a Bliss ID, they might define that this Bliss idea '23456' maps to these three symbols.
14:52:11 <CharlesL1> ack me
14:52:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this is not well explained.
14:52:18 <Matthew_Atkinson> ack me
14:52:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:52:20 <Lisa> i need to drop off. sorry
14:53:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina_: This lookup table registry, -- assuming success -- will encourage symbol set authors to reach a wider audience and perhaps generate more symbols
14:53:51 <CharlesL1> +1 to more clarification on how symbols will work in the spec.
14:54:02 <CharlesL1> +1 to reaching out to JC
14:54:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: Do we need an issue to be sure we action the need for explanatory sections that Matt cited?
14:57:32 <CharlesL1> q+
14:57:48 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:58:40 <sharon> ack CharlesL1
14:58:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: I have a bit of confusion between (a) multiple symbol values in a single markup, in addition to (b) multiple symbols constituting a single aggregated symbol
15:01:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL1: I have similar concerns to the ones Lionel aired.
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15:01:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/11-personalization-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
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