IRC log of personalization on 2022-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:33:47 [trackbot]
Date: 11 April 2022
13:34:04 [sharon]
zakim, clear agenda
13:34:04 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:34:24 [sharon]
chair: sharon
13:34:38 [sharon]
13:35:37 [sharon]
agenda+ Logistics: Easter/Passover/Ramadan holiday season
13:35:42 [sharon]
agenda+ Naming progress
13:36:02 [sharon]
agenda+ Content Module Implementations Status
13:36:25 [sharon]
agenda+ Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute (multi-value vs single value)
13:36:45 [sharon]
agenda+ Follow-up on i18n issue #144
13:37:05 [sharon]
agenda+ Issue 202 regarding Visible Indicators on 2.2 -
13:37:08 [roy__]
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agenda+ Planning future COGA meetings on Our Other Two Modules
13:37:24 [sharon]
13:57:38 [Matthew_Atkinson]
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14:02:18 [janina_]
14:02:26 [CharlesL1]
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14:02:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]
14:02:30 [Lisa]
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14:02:32 [CharlesL1]
14:02:41 [Lisa]
14:02:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]
scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:02:50 [Lisa]
(but I need to leave a bit early)
14:02:58 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:02:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Logistics: Easter/Passover/Ramadan holiday season -- taken up [from sharon]
14:03:18 [Lisa]
I wont be around. taking it off
14:03:30 [mike_beganyi]
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14:04:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:04:21 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Janina: Our focus should be the additions to the document that came up in email
14:04:47 [Matthew_Atkinson]
I _might_ be able to make it, not 100% sure. Officially it's a holiday here, though if I am actually at home I would tend to come.
14:05:14 [becky]
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14:05:41 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Decided: We will meet.
14:06:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]
RESOLVED: We will meet next week as usual, for those members not attending, have a good vacation.
14:06:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:06:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Naming progress -- taken up [from sharon]
14:07:00 [Lionel_Wolberger]
sharon: I understand we are moving forward with WAI-Adapt
14:07:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: There was some additional discussion with Judy on the WAI-CC call
14:08:12 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: It was agreed that we do not need an expansion, but we do want a pithy phrase to put on the slide where we introduce the standard at TPAC
14:08:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we suggested phrases as well
14:10:02 [sharon]
14:11:37 [Matthew_Atkinson]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Matthew_Atkinson
14:13:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: We've got all the pieces, someone needs to capture that 'pithy phrase'
14:14:06 [Lionel_Wolberger]
sharon: I will go through the lists and get the phrase.
14:14:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:14:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Content Module Implementations Status -- taken up [from sharon]
14:15:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]
sharon: Discussions with Phill at IBM are going well, need to clarify further.
14:15:59 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: With access-board we got commitment to markup the ADA-complaint form.
14:17:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we need content and two user-agent implementations.
14:17:07 [Lisa]
14:17:52 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:18:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: UserWay is going to be a renderer of this new markup.
14:18:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: A reminder, renderers should render any markup.
14:18:37 [sharon]
ack Lisa
14:19:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: Ayeleth created a git long ago, she created a script. It featured a button to show symbols
14:20:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]
I think the link is: (there are several repos). Also we linked the HTML example in our TPAC talk.
14:20:41 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:20:46 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... so it is both a markup and a rendering.
14:21:03 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... a shopping cart mockup
14:21:04 [sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:21:53 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: What exactly does IBM expect to render, if they do render?
14:21:59 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:22:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
14:22:16 [sharon]
14:22:27 [sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:22:34 [janina_]
14:23:09 [sharon]
ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:24:46 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Given that the specification has x number of 'must' statements, imagine we number those statements
14:26:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... then for each x(1) must statement, we must show two independent user-agent rendering implementations
14:26:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... there can be one content source that both render
14:28:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... the ADA complaint form being marked up would even be worthy of a press release
14:28:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... as well as an IBM employment form
14:28:15 [sharon]
14:28:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: +1. It's very exciting.
14:28:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Press reports are not as interested in the renderer as the content.
14:29:18 [sharon]
ack janina
14:30:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: We need in writing the exact terms from Bliss. We may need to go back and review aspects of the W3C process
14:31:00 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... keep in mind this is enabling many various registries of symbols
14:31:21 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: We have an excel spreadsheet, linked in the Wiki
14:32:51 [Lisa]
14:33:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... this is the link to the spreadsheet, on the wiki
14:33:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... you can see that Vodafone and Atos made implementation pages
14:34:08 [sharon]
14:35:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: What about wikipedia? I may still have contacts to developers over there.
14:36:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Bliss symbols should at minimum give us a dump periodically in PDF format
14:36:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we would want a commitment from them to continue to maintain this registry
14:37:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... a best case scenario is that Bliss will commit to retaining a Bliss registry on
14:37:56 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Roy_: I did speak with them about that topic, I will find the email.
14:38:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
14:38:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Implications of issue 203 for the data-symbol attribute (multi-value vs single value) -- taken up [from
14:38:08 [Zakim]
... sharon]
14:38:55 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:39:39 [Lionel_Wolberger]
sharon: Citing the note:
14:39:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Which of these is correct? The English "ham sandwich" or the Spanish, which literally translates to "sandwich of ham." In the case sentence and object structure of a symbolic representation, does it matter?
14:39:56 [sharon]
14:39:59 [Lionel_Wolberger]
<span lang="en" data-symbol="16223 16718">ham sandwich</span>
14:40:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
<span lang="es" data-symbol="16718 12324 16223">sándwich de jamón</span>
14:40:32 [sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:40:47 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Janina notes that answering this question is answering a question from Apple, worth replying to
14:41:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: We should have replied long ago
14:42:37 [Lisa]
14:42:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: The data symbol attribute can potentially take multiple values.
14:43:04 [sharon]
ack Lisa
14:43:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: We have a page in German and in Swedish (the cup of tea page)
14:44:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... see there that 'cup of tea' can be combined to become a single symbol
14:44:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... and sometimes you need multiple symbols
14:44:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: If multiple symbols are listed, are they meant to be construed as combining to denote a single symbol?
14:45:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lisa: Depends on the symbol set
14:45:13 [janina_]
14:45:53 [sharon]
14:46:09 [sharon]
ack janina
14:46:09 [Zakim]
janina_, you wanted to react to Lisa
14:46:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Apple does also make authoring tools, so they might get involved with symbol authoring
14:47:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... my inclination is to (a) apologize to James for the delay (b) point him to the ongoing discussion (c) mention the rendering opportunity and (d) the registry need
14:47:26 [CharlesL1]
14:47:37 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... but then point out (e) it is not translation, just different uses of symbols
14:47:39 [sharon]
ack CharlesL1
14:47:41 [Matthew_Atkinson]
+1 to janina_ ACKing and clarifying with James.
14:47:56 [Lionel_Wolberger]
CharlesL1: Rendering should be 1:1. Symbol '12345' is always a dog, etc.
14:49:11 [Matthew_Atkinson]
14:49:26 [sharon]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:49:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... I do not think the HTML developer will do the markup. It will be a Bliss symbol expert hired to make the page Bliss-symbol-friendly.
14:49:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: Does that imply that our system is 'broken', since it requires a Bliss SME?
14:51:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: Respectfully disagree. It should be easy to look-up symbol values and put them in.
14:51:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... no need to know in advance the end-user's preferred set of symbols
14:51:25 [sharon]
14:52:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Matthew_Atkinson: The mapping challenge falls on the AAC Symbol Set provider. Then, if they are lacking a Bliss ID, they might define that this Bliss idea '23456' maps to these three symbols.
14:52:11 [CharlesL1]
ack me
14:52:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... this is not well explained.
14:52:18 [Matthew_Atkinson]
ack me
14:52:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]
14:52:20 [Lisa]
i need to drop off. sorry
14:53:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina_: This lookup table registry, -- assuming success -- will encourage symbol set authors to reach a wider audience and perhaps generate more symbols
14:53:51 [CharlesL1]
+1 to more clarification on how symbols will work in the spec.
14:54:02 [CharlesL1]
+1 to reaching out to JC
14:54:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]
sharon: Do we need an issue to be sure we action the need for explanatory sections that Matt cited?
14:57:32 [CharlesL1]
14:57:48 [sharon]
ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:58:40 [sharon]
ack CharlesL1
14:58:46 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: I have a bit of confusion between (a) multiple symbol values in a single markup, in addition to (b) multiple symbols constituting a single aggregated symbol
15:01:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]
CharlesL1: I have similar concerns to the ones Lionel aired.
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15:01:55 [Lionel_Wolberger]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Lionel_Wolberger
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