IRC log of aria-apg on 2022-04-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:59:51 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-irc
- 18:00:39 [Zakim]
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- 18:01:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
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- present+
- 18:01:56 [Jem]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:01:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
- 18:02:23 [Matt_King]
- MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
- 18:02:25 [Jem]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 18:02:39 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 18:03:16 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-5%2C-2022-Agenda
- 18:03:23 [Jem]
- present+ JaeunJemmaKu
- 18:03:50 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:03:50 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
- 18:05:13 [Jem]
- Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
- 18:05:14 [CurtBellew]
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- 18:07:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
- scribe: MarkMcCarthy
- 18:07:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
- zakim, next item
- 18:07:38 [Zakim]
- I see nothing on the agenda
- 18:07:41 [Jem]
- Topic: APG Issue Triage
- 18:08:22 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-09-01+no%3Alabel+
- 18:08:42 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2269
- 18:08:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: how best to triage this issue?
- 18:08:56 [jongunderson]
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- 18:09:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: i don't think this is an APG issue, probably a VO issue. only wanted it here for tracking. filed with apple via feedback assistant
- 18:09:22 [jongunderson]
- present+ jongunderson
- 18:09:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: did you get any link from apple?
- 18:09:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: not with feedback assistant
- 18:10:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: we have labels for AT. if we say this isn't for practices... it'd need to be added to the slider project so people know
- 18:10:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: most people seem to think it's a VO issue
- 18:10:26 [CurtBellew]
- present+
- 18:10:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: i've experienced this, I assumed it wasn't our code, but I was trying with safari so thought maybe it was something unique to webkit. is thre anything about webkit that's different?
- 18:11:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: reproduces in chrome too
- 18:11:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: when VO isn't running, the page doesn't scroll. so to me it seems like VO is doing something
- 18:11:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: should we close this then, since it's not for APG?
- 18:12:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: fair enough. if I hear back from apple i'll let everyone know
- 18:12:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: this will certainly affect aria-at
- 18:12:33 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2040
- 18:12:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: I don't want to escalate 2269 really, it's not reproducible enough
- 18:13:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: 2040 --
- 18:13:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: sounds like something to assign to infrastructure?
- 18:13:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: yeah
- 18:13:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: this can be closed
- 18:14:45 [jamesn]
- s/I don't want to escalate 2269 really, it's not reproducible enough/I don't want to escalate as it doesn't reproduce on input type=range/
- 18:15:19 [Jem]
- next issue is https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2037
- 18:15:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: added infrastructure label, should be part of the infrastructure project
- 18:16:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: maybe 2040 didn't get done because it wasn't in the project? it's assigned to Jes
- 18:17:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: so this one's about how are we going to best indicate when an exmaple was last updated?
- 18:17:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: some of our examples are 5-6 years old, and it's hard to tell what's using our most up to date code or not
- 18:17:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: this should be transferred to apg-redesign
- 18:18:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: i think i got it transferred
- 18:19:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: looks good, next item is..
- 18:19:49 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2035
- 18:20:33 [Jem]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.2/examples/dialog-modal/datepicker-dialog.html
- 18:21:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: If I'm understanding right, I can't reproduce the issue
- 18:21:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: me either
- 18:21:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: I'm using Firefox on Windows
- 18:21:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: i'm using a Mac
- 18:22:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: oh, using Edge on Mac, if I Esc out of the context menu, my selection becomes the thing I right clicked
- 18:22:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: oh I see it now too, doing it that way
- 18:22:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: i'm not sure it's a WCAG violation though
- 18:23:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: but the bug report says context menu doesn't appear, AND selection changes, but you two see a context menu
- 18:23:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: is expected behavior that right click doesn't select? Selecting text, right click, text remains selected (on github for instance)
- 18:23:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: tempted to say we can't reproduce the problem as described, might need more details
- 18:24:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: seems it's working as intended
- 18:24:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: it's not a change of context, really, right? maybe kinda... hmm
- 18:25:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: maybe it'd just -work better- if it didn't do that
- 18:25:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: i'm inclined to agree
- 18:25:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: i don't think it's enough to disorient a user
- 18:25:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: righjt
- 18:25:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
- s/righjt/right
- 18:25:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: pointer cancellation though... <skimming the SC> I don't think it's that either
- 18:25:45 [CurtBellew]
- Something has come up and I need to drop off.
- 18:25:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: maybe a bug but not a WCAG violation
- 18:26:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: maybe we should look at native date pickers
- 18:27:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: maybe we ignore the right click then?
- 18:27:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: native picker in edge ignores the right click
- 18:28:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: native Windows date picker (e.g. Word) seems to ignore right click also
- 18:28:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: so maybe assign to jongunderson and he can explore from there?
- 18:29:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: cool. next issue is..
- 18:29:23 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2034
- 18:29:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: we do have a generic show/hide, it's the figure caption one
- 18:30:09 [Jem]
- https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/disclosure/disclosure-image-description.html
- 18:30:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: let's ask if this meets the needs described
- 18:31:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: got this mentioned and linked on github
- 18:33:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
- TOPIC: Tab PR
- 18:33:33 [jongunderson]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2266
- 18:34:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: what's the linked issue?
- 18:34:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: 2044
- 18:34:36 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2044
- 18:36:52 [siri]
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- 18:37:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
- [general group grumbling about github's recent changes]
- 18:38:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: so what do we need for this PR?
- 18:38:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: is this only editorial?
- 18:38:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: in my opinion yes
- 18:39:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: i'll merge this after the meeting, all set
- 18:39:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: been doing some testing with the right click thing while chatting, it's not detectible with a regular click event
- 18:39:36 [jongunderson]
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- 18:39:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: it'd complicate the code to add more to listen for that right click
- 18:40:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: can you add a comment explaining that particular bit? we'll use that as our decision.
- 18:40:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: i agree, not in favor of adding complexity for something so small
- 18:40:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: +1
- 18:41:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: not to mention it'd affect almost every example
- 18:41:18 [Jem]
- Topic: Accordion Example
- 18:41:40 [Rich_Noah]
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- 18:41:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/974
- 18:42:02 [Rich_Noah]
- present+
- 18:42:13 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/974
- 18:42:28 [Jem]
- "Should tabbing/using arrow keys skip over disabled headings? The example uses aria-disabled instead of the disabled attribute for the button, though it appears to me the two accomplish the same goal. I imagine for illustrative purposes, the former was used. Nevertheless, using the disabled attribute disallows focusing, so I'm wondering if the example should be updated for consistency?"
- 18:43:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: why would we NOT want focus to go there? updated for consistency with what?
- 18:43:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: did we actually take away arrow key behavior?
- 18:43:49 [Jem]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.2/examples/accordion/accordion.html
- 18:44:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
- siri: i'm not seeing a disabled attribute here
- 18:44:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: OHHH we updated the example. THIS one doesn't have what the issue is describing
- 18:45:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: do we have another? besides Sarah's PR?
- 18:45:20 [siri]
- present +
- 18:46:09 [Jem]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion.html
- 18:46:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: is it okay with the group to say we did do as it's asking, I think Sarah's example includes this? any reason we would NOT want the heading in the tab order?
- 18:46:21 [Jem]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html
- 18:46:37 [Jem]
- we have two accordion examples in progress.
- 18:48:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
- siri: well if it's disabled it should not have focus
- 18:48:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: in accordions, there's an element that visually appears like an icon/button/etc. in addition to the heading text
- 18:49:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: there's a little arrow (and +/- on Sarah's example) showing if something is open or closed, but there's no button or anything
- 18:49:57 [Jem]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html
- 18:49:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: maybe lets look at Sarah's PRs
- 18:50:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Jem: this is the more complex one, has a button wrapped with an h3
- 18:50:39 [siri]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/accordion/accordion.html
- 18:51:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: aria-disabled is on the button, it's true when expanded
- 18:51:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: does it look any differnt visually?
- 18:51:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: no
- 18:51:59 [siri]
- yes
- 18:52:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: so siri's point that it's a little confusing that you can tab to it and not doing anything is kinda confusing
- 18:52:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: i've never liked disabling an accordion button like this, vs. one that you're actually not supposed to interact with
- 18:52:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
- present+ BryanGaraventa
- 18:54:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: yeah, there are some accordions where you can expand and collapse everything, and others where there's always one open. but that doesn't mean the open one has its button disabled
- 18:54:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: but the button that collapses it doesn't do anything, so it's better to be disabled - right?
- 18:54:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: rather than removing the button?
- 18:54:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: I see accordions all the time that DON'T use aria-disabled, rather than this kind
- 18:54:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: because they always allow you to collapse it...right?
- 18:55:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: no - you can collapse it by expanding another section
- 18:55:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: -expanded is meant to convey the current state, not whether or not you can do something with it. imo
- 18:56:09 [jamesn]
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/fluent-ui/web-components/components/accordion gets disabled when it can't be collapsed
- 18:56:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: in other words - I think that, for an active accordion, it's hard to tell if there's a REAL disabled button, rather than this kind of "fake" disabled button
- 18:56:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: but IF an accordion section is disabled, what does it mean? you cannot expand it?
- 18:56:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: yes, it's inactive.
- 18:57:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: okay, it's collapsed and you can't expand it - so now what about the expanded one? can you NOT change the expanded state unless you go to ANOTHER section header and expand THAT ONE?
- 18:57:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: ergo, it's disabled.
- 18:58:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- bryan: okay, but I guess what I'm saying is this is more confusing than what's out in the wild
- 18:58:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: i think part of this is a UI design preference. APG can't solve those. it CAN say "doing it THIS way, then program it THIS way."
- 18:58:36 [siri]
- + Jon
- 18:59:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongunderson: we aren't going to (and can't make) a pattern for everybody or dictate what they use
- 19:00:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- zakim, who is here
- 19:00:01 [Zakim]
- MarkMcCarthy, you need to end that query with '?'
- 19:00:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
- zakim, who is here?
- 19:00:03 [Zakim]
- Present: MarkMcCarthy, Matt_King, JaeunJemmaKu, jongunderson, CurtBellew, Rich_Noah, BryanGaraventa
- 19:00:05 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Rich_Noah, jongunderson, siri, MarkMcCarthy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jem, ZoeBijl, github-bot, trackbot, jamesn, MichaelC
- 19:01:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jamesn: I did include Microsoft's component if anyone needs an example.
- 19:01:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy: this will be a good discussion for next week
- 19:02:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
- present+ Siri
- 19:02:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:02:55 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
- 20:05:36 [Jem]
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