13:47:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
13:47:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/01-silver-irc
13:47:59 <Zakim> inviting RRSAgent
13:48:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:48:01 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:49:08 <jeanne> present:
13:49:08 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
13:49:08 <jeanne> present+
13:49:08 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:49:08 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:49:09 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:49:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/01-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:49:09 <jeanne> q?
13:49:18 <jeanne> regrets: Shawn
13:52:48 <jeanne> agenda+ Requirements Issues Editorial PR 619
13:53:04 <jeanne> agenda+ Requirements issue 427\
13:53:26 <jeanne> agenda+ Requirements issue 451
13:53:35 <jeanne> agenda+ recap and continue the AGWG guidelines exercise
13:56:15 <jeanne> Scribe List -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
13:56:15 <janina> janina has joined #silver
13:56:21 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/01-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:56:42 <janina> present+
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14:02:40 <sarahhorton> present+
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14:03:58 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
14:04:24 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up next
14:04:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Requirements Issues Editorial PR 619 -- taken up [from jeanne]
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14:04:36 <uxjennifer_> present+
14:04:47 <shadi> present+
14:04:53 <maryjom> present+
14:05:19 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/619
14:05:24 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Getting to end of requirements, wrap up today hopefully
14:05:35 <sarahhorton> ... editorial issues all in 1 PR
14:06:19 <sarahhorton> ... need to look at some, others are typos
14:06:40 <sarahhorton> ... look at rewording issues
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14:08:42 <shadi> https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/619/commits
14:08:46 <sarahhorton> ... [working through GitHub issues]
14:08:51 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/619/commits/6b863d15412307378fe1cdfa9d7af2d9252c40ae
14:09:07 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
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14:09:21 <sarahhorton> ... rewording under measurable guidance [reads old, new, changes]
14:09:34 <sarahhorton> ... introduction to measurable guidance
14:11:04 <shadi> q+
14:11:09 <sarahhorton> ... trying to include more user needs
14:11:16 <jeanne> Certain accessibility guidance is quite clear and measurable. Others, far less so. Some needs of people with disabilities, especially cognitive and low vision disabilities, are not well served by guidance that can only be measured by a true/false statement. If we allow Multiple means of measurement, in addition to true/false statements, then we may include new accessibility guidance that
14:11:16 <jeanne> benefits groups that may have been underserved in the past.
14:11:27 <sarahhorton> ... any suggestions?
14:12:17 <sarahhorton> ... used to talk about SCs as pass/fail, changed to true/false, still want pass/fail but not only true/false statements
14:12:42 <jeanne> ack shad
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14:13:08 <Chuck> present+
14:13:16 <sarahhorton> shadi: Likes direction, suggestion to remove first 2 sentences, change especially to such as, change underserved to less served
14:13:37 <maryjom> q+ to say...Perhaps the last phrase could be "that addresses additional user needs previously not covered in WCAG".
14:13:41 <sarahhorton> ... rationale from last time?
14:14:02 <jeanne> q+ janina
14:14:13 <shadi> Some needs of people with disabilities, such as cognitive and low vision disabilities, are not well served by guidance that can only be measured by a true/false statement. If we allow multiple means of measurement, in addition to true/false statements, then we may include new accessibility guidance that benefits  groups that may have been underserved in the past.
14:14:14 <jeanne> ack mary
14:14:14 <Zakim> maryjom, you wanted to say...Perhaps the last phrase could be "that addresses additional user needs previously not covered in WCAG".
14:14:34 <sarahhorton> maryjom: Need to say underserved? Not that, but want to cover additional user needs
14:14:40 <shadi> +1 to MaryJo
14:15:02 <janina> +1 to Mary Jo
14:15:13 <jeanne> ack jan
14:15:42 <shadi> Some needs of people with disabilities, such as cognitive and low vision disabilities, are not well served by guidance that can only be measured by a true/false statement. If we allow multiple means of measurement, in addition to true/false statements, then we may include new accessibility guidance that benefits more people.
14:16:15 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Send editorial comments to email, review, note objections
14:16:32 <sarahhorton> ... significant rewrites on this one, appreciate suggestions
14:17:12 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Sending email about new email list to talk through WCAG 3 issues, all issues, including editorial, pass resolutions from subgroup to list, approve through email where possible
14:17:30 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:17:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Requirements issue 427\ -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:17:54 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/427
14:18:41 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Org sent spreadsheet of comments, want to add instruction videos and how-tos
14:19:14 <sarahhorton> ... concerns, want to use where available, not sure we can commit to it everywhere
14:19:23 <Chuck> q+
14:19:27 <shadi> q+
14:19:28 <sarahhorton> ... thoughts?
14:19:36 <jeanne> ack chuck
14:20:04 <sarahhorton> Chuck: No chair, wonderful, goes where we don't have expertise, not ready to commit to it at this time
14:20:27 <jeanne> ack shadi
14:21:08 <sarahhorton> shadi: Agree, also intrigued, hard work and can't be added easily
14:21:34 <sarahhorton> ... powerful way for people to learn, consider in design knowing might be in future
14:21:44 <jeanne> q+ to answer shadi
14:21:49 <janina> +1 to Shadi.
14:21:55 <Chuck> +1
14:21:55 <sarahhorton> ... think of it when designing UI
14:21:56 <maryjom> q+
14:21:56 <jeanne> ack jeanne
14:21:57 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to answer shadi
14:22:05 <Makoto> +q
14:22:27 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Design for how-to includes links to existing EO or other vetted video/illustration
14:22:27 <janina> q+
14:22:50 <shadi> q+
14:22:57 <sarahhorton> ... worry about committing, include in response, want to include videos where possible but can't commit for all guidelines
14:23:04 <jeanne> ack mary
14:23:34 <sarahhorton> maryjom: Not sure focus is they want us to provide videos/illustrated how-tos, make what we provide understandable to non-technical people
14:23:46 <sarahhorton> ... people trying to consume, finding it difficult
14:24:07 <sarahhorton> ... Silver focus include making it more understandable
14:24:19 <sarahhorton> ... applies to anything we provide
14:24:39 <sarahhorton> ... goal to be consumable by non-experts
14:25:24 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Commented include language from requirements, added the instructional videos/how-tos
14:26:14 <sarahhorton> Makoto: Tough to create videos, having graphic example helpful for non-English speakers, tough for Japanese committee to understand and translate
14:26:23 <jeanne> ack mako
14:26:33 <sarahhorton> ... having only text barrier for wider range of audience to understand
14:26:34 <maryjom> +1 to Makoto China has also had difficulty understanding some criteria.
14:27:23 <sarahhorton> janina: Clearly state in text that's easier to make understandable, easier to meet internationalization requirement
14:27:42 <sarahhorton> ... some might have videos, alternative media would need to be included
14:27:43 <Chuck> q+ to say having an understanding doc and understanding video would be AWESOME!  Maybe explore for some.
14:27:52 <jeanne> ack shadi
14:28:42 <sarahhorton> shadi: Currently not in scope, pursue in future, be clear in response
14:29:13 <sarahhorton> ... different from providing links to other videos, with current design opportunity not to divide into org structure
14:29:25 <sarahhorton> ... WAI producing video can integrate into same UI
14:29:41 <jeanne> The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, design and link to instruction videos and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos amd illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time.
14:29:44 <sarahhorton> ... note to be aware, might be possibility, don't add to scope
14:29:57 <sarahhorton> ... many benefits, can't add to scope now
14:30:23 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0-requirements/#design_principles
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14:30:50 <KimD> Present+
14:31:03 <sarahhorton> jeanne: In design principles section, maybe? Will look at it
14:31:03 <jeanne> ack janina
14:31:08 <Makoto> present+
14:31:36 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Imagining understanding doc and video, great idea, worth exploring
14:32:00 <shadi> q+
14:32:02 <sarahhorton> ... very supportive, might be side project, sounds awesome
14:32:04 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:32:04 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say having an understanding doc and understanding video would be AWESOME!  Maybe explore for some.
14:32:10 <SuzanneTaylor> +1 to chuck's comments
14:32:41 <Chuck> +1
14:32:54 <Chuck> +1 for Jeanne's language
14:33:04 <jeanne> The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, design and link to instruction videos and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos amd illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time.
14:33:07 <maryjom> s/amd/and/
14:34:58 <jeanne> The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, and design. They link to instruction videos and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos and illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time.
14:35:09 <shadi> +1
14:35:12 <Chuck> +1
14:35:20 <Makoto> +1  Wish more graphic examples (including illustrations) though
14:35:32 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Acceptable? Send wordsmith suggestions to Jeanne
14:35:51 <jeanne> The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, and design. They link to instruction videos, illustrations and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos and illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time.
14:36:09 <maryjom> +1
14:36:12 <Chuck> +1 no objections
14:36:15 <Makoto> +1
14:37:00 <jeanne> porposed RESOLUTION: Accept wording "The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, and design. They link to instruction videos, illustrations and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos and illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time."
14:37:07 <sarahhorton> RESOLUTION: Accept wording "The core guidelines are understandable by a non-technical audience. Text and presentation are usable and understandable through the use of plain language, structure, and design. They link to instruction videos, illustrations and how-to where available.  Creation of new videos and illustrations are outside the scope of this project at this time."
14:38:05 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/WCAG_Requirements
14:38:23 <sarahhorton> shadi: What is process for recording as wishlist/future work? Previous attempt to map out potential videos for each SC
14:38:37 <sarahhorton> ... stopped for reasons, potential for future
14:38:54 <sarahhorton> ... hearing interest, off table now but what do we do to record for future?
14:39:05 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Page of future ideas
14:39:15 <shadi> ack me
14:39:28 <sarahhorton> ... on wiki homepage, ideas section
14:39:56 <sarahhorton> ... add under potential guidelines
14:40:00 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Potential_Guidelines_in_Silver
14:40:39 <sarahhorton> janina: Talking about CBT, Computer Based Training, building accessible ones, associate with how-tos?
14:41:26 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Added, hopefully we will get to it, link to good work outside orgs do
14:41:47 <sarahhorton> ... orgs affiliated that do training videos, link to their work (might be reasons)
14:42:00 <sarahhorton> janina: Companies could submit, might be value
14:42:08 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:42:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Requirements issue 451 -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:43:06 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/451
14:43:33 <sarahhorton> jeanne: ITI comments on FPWD, emailed, answered questions in status document
14:43:46 <jeanne>     Are there additional Design Principles and Requirements that should be included in the WCAG 3 project?
14:43:46 <jeanne> Yes - inclusion of a compliance level or mechanism that only depends upon automated/automatable tests rather than needing human judgement and review. Sites need to be able to approach some level of conformance without manual effort, or with minimal manual effort on a limited number of key outcomes. This would, of course, not be a desired end-point for any content, but this is sufficiently
14:43:47 <jeanne> important for many large and highly dynamic sites that it merits mention in the requirements document.
14:45:01 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Conformance options discussing, huge issue, should address with chairs, do we want to comment? Good phrasing of issue, merits discussion
14:45:17 <sarahhorton> ... chairs pop in if want to postpone/address differently
14:45:21 <Chuck> q+
14:45:40 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Have to have the conversation
14:45:45 <Chuck> ach Ch
14:46:10 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Conformance options discuss adding level below bronze, automatable tests
14:46:55 <sarahhorton> ... wouldn't meet regulatory requirement but would be under that, provide way for large/dynamic to maintain check on pages/site knowing more testing required
14:47:01 <janina> q+
14:47:10 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:47:38 <sarahhorton> ... anything automateable and not fixed should not pass
14:48:06 <sarahhorton> ... manual test would have more leeway if not critical error
14:48:11 <Chuck> q+
14:48:47 <shadi> q+
14:48:48 <sarahhorton> ... make it more acceptable, so much can't be tested by automated test, understands large orgs need it
14:48:52 <jeanne> ack jani
14:49:46 <sarahhorton> janina: Part of problem, creating page user sees happens in many places, content injected at "edge" different from similar content at same source, localized, regionalized
14:50:11 <jeanne> +1 to janina - I often see content that is injected by location
14:50:13 <sarahhorton> ... content delivery networks injecting content, wouldn't catch without automated test
14:50:19 <maryjom> q+
14:50:22 <sarahhorton> ... flag things, becomes important
14:50:41 <jeanne> ack chuck
14:50:44 <Makoto> q+
14:51:04 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Thinking of meta, not solving it now, deciding what our answer would be for comment
14:51:28 <sarahhorton> ... will make these considerations, set expectation that will be conversation when tackle conformance
14:51:44 <janina> +1 to Chuck.
14:51:47 <jeanne> ack chu
14:51:50 <jeanne> ack shadi
14:52:02 <sarahhorton> shadi: Agree need to discuss, nervous about this
14:52:31 <sarahhorton> ... breaking down requirements, adding more testability to smaller chunk requirements, what's testable, what's not
14:52:50 <sarahhorton> ... suggestion to add compliance/conformance here, not looking at user perspective
14:53:06 <sarahhorton> ... below what policies take up, how do we know what policy makers will do?
14:53:19 <jeanne> +1 to nervousness of reducing meeting user needs
14:53:25 <sarahhorton> ... nothing stops companies from setting up policies
14:53:41 <sarahhorton> ... tough discussion, not fully in line, that's fine
14:54:00 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Was an interesting idea, remembered, not a proposal
14:54:02 <jeanne> ack mary
14:54:50 <sarahhorton> maryjom: Claiming automated test, single page will have 100+ errors, trying to keep up to make sure 100% fixing everything thing, that may not have effect on user
14:55:12 <shadi> +1 to MaryJo
14:55:28 <sarahhorton> ... will still be bugs with automated tests, will still have to decide what to do, remaining issues
14:55:38 <jeanne> ack mako
14:56:07 <sarahhorton> Makoto: Understand intent of comment, not easy to do, accept auto-tested conformance means accept inaccessible digital content
14:56:38 <sarahhorton> ... cause problems with insufficient or inappropriate alternative text or keyboard inaccessible or bad caption videos, challenging
14:56:45 <Chuck> q+ to ask the question if we are evaluating an answer of "yes but not for this specific example?"
14:56:50 <sarahhorton> ... exploring how to make it happen, going to be tough
14:57:04 <jeanne> ack ch
14:57:04 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask the question if we are evaluating an answer of "yes but not for this specific example?"
14:57:32 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Still at meta-level, exploring, yes, we will consider, or yes, not this one or, no, not at all. Focused on answer
14:57:48 <sarahhorton> ... don't want to try to solve here, focus on what answer should be
14:58:18 <sarahhorton> ... might need to explore to figure out answer
14:58:31 <sarahhorton> ... don't go too far down that path
14:58:34 <janina> Suggested: "We expect we will need to explore and account for automation in WCAG 3 conformance."
14:59:03 <jeanne> Comment: We have received similar requests for an automated test level.  There are some complex issues associated with this, including the problems of reducing the accessibility at that level.  We are going to address this issue when we have a more detailed conversation on Conformance.
14:59:34 <Chuck> including the challenges of reducing
14:59:54 <jeanne> Comment: We have received similar requests for an automated test level.  There are some complex issues associated with this, including the problems of reducing the accessibility at that level.  We intend to make WCAG3 testing more granular to support automated testing.  We are going to address this issue when we have a more detailed conversation on Conformance.
15:00:12 <shadi> +1 to Jeanne
15:00:28 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Finish up next week!
15:00:33 <Chuck> We have received similar requests for an automated test level.  There are some complex issues associated with this, including the challenges of reducing the accessibility at that level.  We intend to make WCAG3 testing more granular to support automated testing.  We are going to address this issue when we have a more detailed conversation on Conformance.
15:00:47 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/01-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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