15:44:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
15:44:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-silver-conf-irc
15:44:23 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
15:44:31 <janina> Date: 31 Mar 2022
15:44:35 <janina> Chair: Janina
15:44:41 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
15:44:45 <janina> agenda?
15:45:28 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
15:45:28 <janina> agenda+ User Scenarios Debrief https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
15:45:31 <janina> agenda+ Next Steps
15:45:33 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:45:36 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
15:46:27 <janina>  Regrets: Darryl_Lehmann
15:46:38 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
15:56:57 <janina> regrets+ Azlan_Cuttilan
15:58:21 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #silver-conf
15:59:07 <janina> present+
16:00:29 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
16:01:08 <shadi> present+
16:02:23 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
16:02:43 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
16:03:38 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver-conf
16:03:52 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver-conf
16:04:03 <GreggVan> present+
16:04:16 <joeyang> joeyang has joined #silver-conf
16:04:53 <PeterKorn> present+
16:05:19 <joeyang> present+
16:05:28 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:06:16 <maryjom> present+
16:06:19 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
16:06:34 <PeterKorn> q+
16:06:35 <shadi> Janina: main agenda item is debrief
16:06:44 <shadi> ...and talking about what next
16:06:53 <shadi> ...no announcements today
16:07:24 <shadi> ack peter
16:07:26 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:07:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- User Scenarios Debrief https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios -- taken up [from janina]
16:07:44 <shadi> Peter: think meeting went very well
16:07:52 <janina> q?
16:08:04 <shadi> ...wasn't surprised that exception discussion came up
16:08:14 <shadi> ...but felt there was warmth for the work
16:08:17 <SusiPallero> SusiPallero has joined #silver-conf
16:09:02 <jeanne> present+
16:09:15 <SusiPallero> present+
16:09:46 <shadi> Joseph: [introduces himself]
16:10:15 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:10:15 <Zakim> Present: janina, shadi, GreggVan, PeterKorn, joeyang, maryjom, jeanne, SusiPallero
16:10:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see SusiPallero, joeyang, GreggVan, maryjom, PeterKorn, Wilco, shadi, MichaelC_, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, jeanne, Rachael, trackbot
16:11:31 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #silver-conf
16:14:50 <ToddL> present+
16:14:53 <Wilco> present+
16:16:12 <janina> q?
16:16:15 <jeanne> q+
16:16:26 <ToddL> q+
16:16:33 <shadi> Jeanne: thought it went very well
16:16:41 <shadi> ...most comments seemed engaging
16:16:50 <shadi> ...that was my hope
16:16:56 <shadi> ack jeanne
16:17:10 <shadi> Janina: agree
16:17:47 <jeanne> +1 to Shadi's response
16:18:01 <Wilco> q+
16:18:05 <shadi> ...didn't hear any opposition to the buckets concept
16:18:50 <janina> q?
16:19:05 <janina> ack to
16:19:07 <shadi> Todd: thought conversation went very well
16:19:20 <janina> ack wil
16:19:32 <shadi> ...good responses to questions
16:19:36 <shadi> Wilco: agree with all
16:19:47 <shadi> ...not surprised that exceptions came up
16:19:58 <shadi> ...wonder if we need to address upfront
16:20:00 <janina> q+
16:20:12 <shadi> Peter: tried that in user generated
16:20:22 <shadi> ...but may be worthwhile to try again
16:20:34 <shadi> Janina: agree it will continue to come up
16:20:47 <shadi> ...as long as WCAG 2.x is being worked on
16:21:14 <shadi> ...mindset different from 3.0 model
16:21:29 <PeterKorn> q?
16:21:38 <PeterKorn> q+
16:21:44 <shadi> ...maybe need to work on smaller set of situations
16:21:57 <shadi> ...and lay out the buckets more nuanced
16:22:02 <shadi> ack janina
16:22:51 <janina> ack ja
16:22:59 <janina> ack pe
16:23:34 <shadi> Peter: so far we had mostly focused on standards level work
16:23:43 <janina> q?
16:23:54 <shadi> ...maybe the next step would be to work on application and policy guidance
16:24:09 <shadi> ...as examples to help people understand the approach
16:24:22 <shadi> Janina: we seem to be in agreement
16:24:40 <shadi> ...maybe not do that for all situations but just a subset
16:24:46 <shadi> Jeanne: +1
16:24:52 <jeanne> +1 to going back with 2 well-worked out examples
16:24:52 <shadi> Peter: I like that idea
16:24:57 <ToddL> +1 as well.
16:25:04 <janina> q?
16:25:06 <shadi> Gregg: maybe pick ones that are easier to understand
16:25:11 <Wilco> q+
16:25:27 <shadi> ...some that are more policy related
16:25:40 <shadi> ...to help relieve some of the tension
16:25:50 <shadi> ...might get a better reaction
16:26:09 <shadi> ...avoid perception we're trying to get an exception
16:26:24 <janina> ack wil
16:26:25 <shadi> ack wilco
16:27:07 <PeterKorn> "Considerations for policy-makers looking to adopt WCAG [3]"
16:27:23 <shadi> Wilco: is this to come with a document for policy makers?
16:27:40 <shadi> Gregg: yes, more towards our third bucket
16:28:02 <shadi> ...maybe lead with the policy guidance
16:28:25 <shadi> ...and at the end add things that could be done in addition
16:29:07 <jeanne> +1 to coming back in detail with only 1 or 2 items
16:29:51 <shadi> Janina: could pick just 2 or 3 and try to be more nuanced
16:31:04 <shadi> ...some things stand out to me from reading the document
16:31:15 <shadi> ...critical errors will be an important concept
16:31:46 <shadi> ...second, more sophisticated way of labeling things
16:32:02 <shadi> ...maybe some form of metadata markup
16:32:09 <janina> q?
16:32:17 <shadi> ...could be a win, because can build smarter interfaces
16:33:43 <maryjom> scribe: maryjom
16:33:46 <maryjom> Generally an explanation of what to expect that is easy to get to that provides access to get help when requirements aren't met.
16:33:57 <PeterKorn> q+
16:34:03 <maryjom> s/Generally/shadi: Generally/
16:34:03 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:34:14 <janina> ack pe
16:34:30 <shadi> Peter: which of the 11 situations do we think are most ripe?
16:34:58 <shadi> ...maybe ones that policy makers have already addressed
16:35:15 <shadi> ...like small businesses, which most policies already address
16:35:45 <shadi> ...another one, is transition periods when introducing new policies
16:36:32 <shadi> ...also possibly something around situation 7 and future technologies
16:36:39 <GreggVan> q+
16:37:11 <shadi> Gregg: think that is spot-on
16:37:22 <shadi> ...these are mostly policy areas
16:37:35 <shadi> ...will have less controversy
16:37:54 <janina> q+
16:37:58 <janina> ack gr
16:38:11 <shadi> ...maybe we have too many bullets on policy
16:38:27 <shadi> ...could just say, this is a policy issue
16:38:27 <PeterKorn> q+
16:38:44 <jeanne> For small business, we should provide suggested language for procurement contracts
16:38:52 <shadi> ...could work on the details later
16:40:12 <shadi> Janina: on XR, maybe have some first pieces that could be done already
16:40:38 <shadi> q+
16:40:45 <shadi> ack janina
16:41:13 <GreggVan> sorry I have to go present to a class at CMU    regrets
16:41:20 <shadi> ...speaks to the fact that we can't be just categorical
16:41:28 <jeanne> q+ to say that we should start with ones that are mostly policy but there are things we can suggest technically.
16:41:39 <GreggVan> +1
16:41:42 <shadi> q- later
16:42:26 <shadi> ...would like to address authoring tool vendors a little
16:42:34 <janina> q?
16:42:36 <shadi> ...because they have such a massive impact
16:42:39 <janina> ack pe
16:43:05 <shadi> Peter: suggest even cite policy examples we know of
16:43:24 <janina> q?
16:44:04 <shadi> ...there might be some technical aspects in the small business area as well
16:44:16 <shadi> ...lowest hanging fruit that is easy to do
16:44:31 <shadi> ...maybe could be more nuanced
16:44:48 <shadi> ...think there might be some examples
16:45:02 <janina> ack jea
16:45:02 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that we should start with ones that are mostly policy but there are things we can suggest technically.
16:45:27 <shadi> Jeanne: thinking of 2 and 3 or of 4 and 5
16:45:36 <shadi> ...think these are more balanced examples
16:45:44 <janina> q?
16:45:45 <shadi> ...technical things we can do
16:46:07 <shadi> ...specific things we can put in each of the buckets
16:46:33 <shadi> ...if we do only policy ones, might a have a lot to catch up on
16:46:34 <janina> ack sh
16:46:40 <maryjom> scribe: maryjom
16:47:29 <maryjom> shadi: RE: Peter, agree with overall approach but nervous of citing specific policy as examples. Could start us down rabbit holes.
16:48:04 <janina> q?
16:48:22 <maryjom> ... Should stay some agnostic from specific policy and what is good/bad. Could cause some pushback.
16:48:33 <maryjom> s/some/somewhat/
16:48:55 <janina> q?
16:49:10 <maryjom> ... Situation 1 with bugs could have some controversy, but is a central one that has more policy than technical concerns.
16:49:36 <SusiPallero> +1
16:49:38 <maryjom> ... Marking what works/doesn't work, stating a policy to how to report buts, avoid having critical errors, etc.
16:49:45 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:49:49 <maryjom> s/buts/bugs/
16:50:10 <janina> q+
16:50:18 <shadi> Peter: maybe being too cautious
16:50:34 <shadi> ...could start with something more complex internally
16:50:44 <shadi> ...like 11, 1, or other
16:50:58 <shadi> ...see how this pans out, and re-assess later
16:51:42 <shadi> Janina: last task from AGWG Chairs before this task were
16:51:46 <shadi> ...sampling and reporting
16:52:04 <shadi> ...and third-party
16:52:22 <shadi> ...so could consider that as well
16:52:53 <shadi> Peter: third party could be another option
16:53:00 <janina> ack ja
16:53:10 <ToddL> q+
16:53:46 <shadi> Peter: could also think about the role of accompanying guidance
16:54:16 <shadi> ...things to look for when evaluating a CMS
16:54:34 <shadi> ...not for us to develop that guidance but to outline that
16:55:02 <shadi> Janina: EOWG has also been doing a lot of excellent work
16:55:07 <Wilco> +1 I think there's a lot to be said for continuing on the third-party direction
16:55:19 <shadi> ...doesn't all have to come from AGWG
16:56:35 <shadi> ...could maybe be interested in providing some of this guidance
16:56:47 <shadi> ...and work with the maturity model guidance
16:56:49 <janina> q?
16:57:45 <janina> ack to
16:58:07 <shadi> Todd: think working on subset of buckets is a good idea
16:58:19 <PeterKorn> I also need to drop a touch early.  Thank you!
16:58:19 <shadi> ...like the discussion we are having today
16:58:37 <shadi> Janina: let's think about this more
16:58:52 <shadi> ...and regroup next week to take this further
17:00:13 <janina> zakim, bye
17:00:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been janina, shadi, GreggVan, PeterKorn, joeyang, maryjom, jeanne, SusiPallero, ToddL, Wilco
17:00:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf
17:00:18 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
17:00:40 <janina> rrsagent, bye
17:00:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items