IRC log of coga on 2022-03-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:27:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:27:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:27:18 [trackbot]
Date: 31 March 2022
13:27:37 [ShawnT]
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13:27:52 [lisa]
Regrets: EA, Albert, Kris Anne
13:28:49 [lisa]
Agenda+ Updates and Actions. See
13:29:30 [lisa]
Agenda+ Update on WCAG 3 and testing
13:29:45 [lisa]
Agenda+ Gaudenship draft
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13:57:31 [Jennie]
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13:57:36 [Jennie]
13:57:52 [lisa]
13:58:01 [Jennie]
scribe: Jennie
13:58:49 [JohnRochford]
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13:59:47 [Rain]
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14:00:02 [JustineP]
14:00:22 [Rain]
14:00:30 [Le]
14:00:31 [Fazio]
14:01:11 [lisa]
zakem, next item
14:01:13 [julierawe]
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14:01:16 [Roy]
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14:01:18 [Le]
David, could you please drop the the link for that study you were talking about? I'd love to take a look.
14:01:20 [julierawe]
14:01:29 [lisa]
zakem, next item
14:01:38 [lisa]
zakim, next item
14:01:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Updates and Actions. See -- taken up [from lisa]
14:02:08 [ShawnT]
14:02:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: EO document
14:02:18 [Rashmi]
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14:02:19 [Jennie]
...It is looking good. We still have to work on it a bit more.
14:02:29 [Rashmi]
14:02:30 [Jennie]
...Julie - do you want to organize a meeting for next week?
14:02:50 [Rain]
14:02:58 [Jennie]
Julie: Yes, I will send around another survey. I will send a calendar invite once we agree on a time.
14:03:00 [Rain]
ack Rain
14:03:11 [lisa]
ack next
14:03:12 [Jennie]
Rain: We have an issue now around the personas
14:03:13 [Rain]
Issue regarding EO personas:
14:03:14 [david-swallow]
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14:03:28 [david-swallow]
14:03:31 [Jennie]
Rain: They had asked that we publish it as a formal issue on github so they can track it
14:03:36 [Jennie]
...Lisa, I tagged you on it
14:03:43 [Jennie]
...It is also on our timeline document as well
14:03:56 [Jennie]
...Please feel free to add to the issue if you would like to
14:04:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: We still have the document that Julie's taking the lead with
14:04:18 [Jennie]
...and we have these other comments. That's fantastic.
14:04:26 [Jennie]
...The other 2 items are at good places.
14:04:53 [Jennie]
...David F has been doing work on the mental health - it would be great if you could put it somewhere
14:04:59 [Jennie]
David F: Can someone email me the link?
14:05:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: I will put it on my to-do list.
14:05:16 [Jennie]
...Jennie will give a review later.
14:05:46 [Jennie]
Julie: The Google form was shared last week with the COGA team.
14:05:48 [Fazio]
Schizophrenia and internet use paper:
14:06:02 [Jennie]
...There are now 2 ways to submit examples: use the Google form, or use the Google doc
14:06:11 [Jennie]
...Any example submitted will be debated by the team
14:06:17 [Jennie]
...Clear language examples
14:06:31 [Jennie]
...Anywhere you submit an example is locked down (non-public) so you can submit live examples
14:06:46 [Jennie]
...If we decide to include any example in a draft we share with the public we will anonymize it
14:06:59 [Jennie]
Lisa: Link for the Google form for Clear Language?
14:07:07 [julierawe]
14:07:22 [Jennie]
...They don't have headings indicating which are for the community group or the task force
14:07:37 [Jennie]
...We have also asked if everyone can submit 2 examples - that is really helpful for us
14:07:49 [Jennie]
...They can be good examples, bad examples, or those that need discussion
14:08:10 [Rashmi]
14:08:19 [Jennie]
Julie: Thank you for pointing out that the Google form - I adjusted the title so it is clearer. The one above is the task force one
14:08:25 [Jennie]
14:08:49 [Jennie]
Le: Everything is fine with my tasks
14:09:08 [Jennie]
Lisa: There was another item sent to the list - our work statement
14:09:17 [JohnRochford]
14:09:23 [Jennie]
...We reviewed the work statement, it went both to APA and to the AG working group
14:09:27 [Jennie]
...They both approved it
14:09:35 [Jennie]
...It is now online as the new work statement of what we are doing
14:09:41 [Jennie]
...Thank you Roy for putting that up!
14:09:46 [Jennie]
...Now we want to work on it, achieve it
14:09:52 [Jennie]
...Well done everyone!
14:10:15 [stevelee]
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14:10:21 [Roy]
14:10:21 [lisa]
zakim, next item
14:10:21 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, lisa
14:10:27 [lisa]
ack next
14:10:48 [Jennie]
Rashmi: I have made some changes in the Clear document example - should I share that form?
14:11:01 [Jennie]
Lisa: We have a task force meeting afterwards, so I have not put it on the agenda today
14:11:09 [Jennie]
...If we have time at the end of the meeting, we can review it then
14:11:10 [lisa]
zakim, next item
14:11:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Update on WCAG 3 and testing -- taken up [from lisa]
14:11:12 [Jennie]
...I am using it
14:11:51 [Jennie]
Lisa: We will move to the next item until Rachael joins
14:11:54 [Rain]
scribe: Rain
14:12:07 [Rain]
zakim, take up item 3
14:12:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Gaudenship draft -- taken up [from lisa]
14:13:10 [Rain]
Jennie: sharing guardianship draft doc
14:13:26 [lisa]
14:13:38 [Rain]
... took all suggestions and starting to go through to incorporate them. When two conflicted, we merged the concepts together
14:13:49 [Rain]
... example, took both problem statements to ensure that we had both concepts included
14:14:05 [Rain]
... now a couple things left to resolve. Will go through those after reviewing the structure
14:14:44 [Jennie]
Guardianship document:
14:15:01 [Rain]
Jennie: structure review, start with the Goal
14:15:42 [Rain]
... changed the document to reflect the goals of the document
14:15:45 [Rachael]
14:15:56 [Rain]
... people in a person's life may also require cognitive support
14:16:29 [Rain]
... spoke through different types of requests for people who are in the community groups
14:16:37 [Rain]
Jennie: first unresolved comment
14:16:47 [Rain]
... vulnerability is a consideration
14:17:01 [Rain]
... if a person is vulnerable in any way,
14:17:19 [Rain]
... want to verify that having two examples of vulnerability are helpful
14:17:41 [Fazio]
14:17:42 [Rain]
... example 1: robo calls and phishing attacks targeting adults with cognitive challenges
14:17:49 [ShawnT]
14:17:51 [Rain]
... would like to remove "other"
14:17:52 [Le]
14:18:07 [lisa]
14:18:16 [Rain]
... general agreement in the chat, so removing the word "other"
14:18:31 [Rain]
Julie: see two examples in the paragraph, so want to suggest considering turning them into bullet points for easier skimming
14:18:37 [Rain]
Jennie: doing that not
14:19:08 [Rain]
Jennie: second suggestion, in online interactions, when identity is available through publications people they might encounter who are not part of their daily interactions may become aware of them
14:19:17 [Rain]
... so individuals who participate may become a target
14:19:20 [Rain]
... any concerns?
14:19:49 [Rain]
Lisa: need to clarify language, and in W3C, person's identity is available in publications
14:20:18 [Rain]
Jennie: we've been using the word publications to include W3C, so adding official notes, meeting minutes, use case publications
14:20:33 [Rain]
... enough to give the idea without listing every kind of publication
14:21:40 [Rain]
Jennie: if a person is not savvy about publishing their name, then what can happen is that they may not be aware that someone can search the internet and find their address
14:21:56 [Rain]
Le: yes, we ran into that a couple of years ago, where states started publishing tax reports
14:22:05 [Rain]
... so if someone owns a home, you can get their address from their name
14:22:20 [lisa]
14:22:51 [Rain]
Lisa: how about "this can be important if the person's address is findable on the internet"
14:23:06 [Rain]
... was not the point I was making
14:23:20 [Rain]
... discussing challenges, and what people do for security, what they do isn't secure
14:23:28 [Rain]
... have to make very sure that that doesn't happen
14:24:16 [stevelee]
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14:24:19 [Rain]
... example of a potential issue, that now people know that someone writes their password and puts them next to their desk
14:24:41 [lisa]
I like how it looks now
14:24:56 [Rain]
Jennie: what we may need to clarify that individuals may not be aware that people are reading the minutes, so what they share can impact their safety
14:25:08 [Rain]
... may need to qualify how we write it be specific to cognitive
14:25:35 [Rain]
... could we qualify "related to disability" to sharing use case and address being findable to highlight the difference for people with cognitive disabilities doing these tasks
14:25:53 [Rain]
Lisa: not sure we need to spell it out, because disability information is sensitive no matter what kind of disability it is
14:26:10 [Rain]
... I think this says enough
14:26:22 [Rain]
Jennie: okay, then going to accept the suggestion that we have and that will resolve the issue
14:26:43 [Rain]
Jennie: suggestion from Michael Cooper, note that this applies to participants in non public groups but where the content is public
14:26:57 [Rain]
... W3C may at its discretion grant member access to confidential information
14:27:39 [Rain]
MichaelC: I'm not sure this applies in this situation
14:28:11 [Rain]
Jennie: one of John Kirkwood's concerns was where one person in a corporation grants ability to participate to others in their corporation who are not part of the group itself
14:29:19 [Rain]
MichaelC: refers to member confidential groups. None of the WAI groups are member confidential
14:29:29 [Rain]
... for all groups we are talking about, not sure this is relevant
14:29:43 [Rain]
... more complex if we are also trying to talk about member confidentiality
14:30:24 [Rain]
Jennie: challenge we were having is how to scope the document. Not just relevant to COGA, but to any W3C group
14:30:48 [Rain]
... went through remainder of comments, and broke out the suggestions into Recommendations headings, with proposed
14:31:04 [Rain]
... pieces that apply to before you become a member, ways to help people participate, and support person or organization option
14:31:10 [MichaelC]
q+ to talk procedure and tooling
14:31:45 [lisa]
ack next
14:31:46 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to talk procedure and tooling
14:32:02 [Rain]
MichaelC: do we need some kind of proceedure or tooling?
14:32:17 [Rain]
... what do we need official tools for, and what can we do by improving procedures?
14:32:25 [Rain]
... member representative has precedent
14:32:39 [Rain]
... there is enough content and questions now to bring to the legal team, so suggest doing that now
14:32:56 [Rain]
Lisa: do you feel would be interesting for them to look at as is, and then finish in the next 3 weeks?
14:33:10 [Rain]
MichaelC: yes, think would be good to have them look at it as is so that they can respond to them now
14:34:18 [Rain]
Jennie: feeling secure about the level of security of the document, fine to share now
14:34:36 [Rain]
lisa: resolution is to allow W3C parties outside COGA to review
14:34:39 [Rain]
... and add comments
14:34:43 [lisa]
reolution, to alow other w3c parties outside coga to review and add comments?
14:34:46 [lisa]
14:34:49 [Rain]
14:34:53 [Jennie]
14:34:55 [Rachael]
14:34:55 [Rashmi]
14:34:58 [julierawe]
14:34:59 [Le]
14:35:08 [ShawnT]
14:35:16 [Rain]
lisa: if agree, +1, if want to talk about more, 0, if against this, -1
14:35:24 [david-swallow]
14:35:36 [MichaelC]
14:35:48 [MichaelC]
ack me
14:35:55 [lisa]
ack next
14:35:55 [Rain]
MichaelC: putting on to do list to schedule a meeting with legal team
14:36:07 [Rain]
... think Jennie or John K to present, and will invite Lisa and Rain (off list)
14:36:15 [Rain]
scribe: Jennie
14:36:17 [lisa]
zakim, next item
14:36:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Update on WCAG 3 and testing -- taken up [from lisa]
14:36:40 [Jennie]
Rachael: There are a lot of ways we refer to this
14:36:49 [Rachael]
14:37:13 [Jennie]
Rachael: We will try the exercise with the plain language group in the hour following this call
14:37:24 [kirkwood]
sorry late work meeting just got in.
14:37:24 [Jennie]
...We are talking about not just how to test, but how we will apply those tests
14:37:33 [Jennie]
...Last week, the AG did an exercise
14:37:53 [Jennie]
...We broke down existing success criteria and applied this process to see if this is a useful way to think about it
14:37:57 [Jennie]
...It is exploratory
14:38:05 [Jennie]
...It helps with the work on WCAG 3
14:38:15 [Jennie]
...There are different categorizations
14:38:24 [Jennie]
...Please add questions into the Queue if you have questions
14:38:30 [Jennie]
...1st, the smallest unit
14:38:36 [Jennie]
...We don't have final terms for these
14:38:54 [Jennie]
...this could be an interactive component, a paragraph, a dropdown...
14:38:58 [Jennie]
...2nd: the view
14:39:04 [Jennie]
...In WCAG 2 that is the page
14:39:18 [Jennie]
...In single page applications, all the states that can change - page is not currently sufficient
14:39:26 [Jennie]
...3rd: user process
14:39:33 [Jennie]
...(reads draft definition)
14:39:49 [Jennie]
...The process to go from point a to point b when completing a task
14:39:55 [Jennie]
4th: the aggregate of all those things
14:40:04 [Jennie]
...The Wholistic thing we can test
14:40:11 [Jennie]
...We test in WCAG 2 these things implicitly
14:40:17 [Jennie]
...Talking about them clearly has been helpful
14:40:19 [Jennie]
14:40:35 [Jennie]
...Next: 4 types of tests
14:40:41 [Jennie]
...1: fully objective test
14:40:48 [Jennie]
...Measures against a constant, like color contrast
14:40:52 [Jennie]
...Totally objective
14:40:58 [Jennie]
...Or, does something exist or not
14:41:02 [Jennie]
...Easy to make machine testable
14:41:04 [lisa]
maybe the task is important layer
14:41:09 [Jennie]
...WCAG says "it must be there"
14:41:20 [Jennie]
...The tests are objective, repeatable, easy to state
14:41:29 [Jennie]
...WCAG 2 tried to make tests like this as much as possible
14:41:48 [Jennie]
...2: Condition (subjective) test
14:41:53 [Jennie]
...Measures against conditions
14:42:02 [Jennie]
...We say 8 of 10 experts would agree
14:42:08 [Jennie]
...Less objective than test 1
14:42:15 [Jennie]
...Text alternatives is an example
14:42:33 [Jennie]
...You need both the constant test (alt text is present)
14:42:42 [Jennie]
...And the condition test (quality of the alt text)
14:42:48 [Jennie]
...Another example is meaningful sequent
14:42:54 [Jennie]
...You have to evaluate the quality
14:43:14 [Jennie]
...Now we are talking about aditionally more subjective
14:43:31 [Jennie]
...3: Test case - measures against an internal baseline set by the developing organization
14:43:44 [Jennie]
...WCAG defines the types of conditions and the failures, but not the specifics
14:43:58 [Jennie]
...Tests would pass if the (reads from slide 5)
14:44:27 [Jennie]
...Example: wouldn't say what reading level would be required, but might dictate that the organization sets a reading level
14:44:49 [Jennie]
...This concept hopefully lets us expand the types of tests, and incorporate more of the COGA type of tests
14:44:56 [Jennie]
Lisa: Does this include/can this include user tests?
14:45:03 [Jennie]
Rachael: The next one does.
14:45:44 [Jennie]
...4: Protocols: this is where user testing would most likely fall
14:45:51 [Jennie]
...It would test whether a process was done
14:46:00 [Jennie]
...There was a lot of talk about the quality of the results
14:46:19 [Jennie]
...Most likely WCAG would have people state the date completed, the protocol
14:46:21 [Le]
14:46:32 [Jennie]
...(reads from slide 6)
14:46:58 [Jennie]
...Pieces of plain language would be in other tests, but the full review would be here
14:47:06 [Jennie]
...(now reviewing slide 7)
14:47:23 [lisa]
14:47:24 [Jennie]
...None of this has yet been determined
14:47:24 [julierawe]
14:47:27 [lisa]
ack next
14:47:40 [Jennie]
Le: The test case: the idea is the customer saying this is my audience
14:47:51 [Jennie]
...My goal is to have plain language for a certain grade level specific to my audience
14:47:53 [kirkwood]
14:48:03 [Jennie]
...once they state their audience and their goal, then they have to follow it
14:48:06 [Jennie]
Rachael: exactly
14:48:19 [Jennie]
Le: The protocol - you need to have things in place, like user testing
14:48:20 [lisa]
ack next
14:48:20 [Rachael]
ack le
14:48:23 [Jennie]
Rachael: exactly
14:48:31 [Jennie]
Lisa: On the units
14:48:45 [Jennie]
...There is user process, and aggregate - none of them are actually a task with a goal
14:48:51 [Jennie]
...I think that should be specified in one of them
14:48:58 [Jennie]
...I think task is really important
14:49:11 [Jennie]
...Rather than the flow of clicking through the process doable
14:49:26 [Jennie]
...Did I understand the information - if my task was to understand what I needed to do before my procedure
14:49:35 [Jennie]
...I wasn't sure that aggregate or user process
14:49:49 [Jennie]
Rachael: User process is intended to be that. I will take that back to the group to make clearer
14:50:03 [Jennie]
Lisa: Task completion may be "I now understand something that I need to do"
14:50:27 [Jennie]
...That might involve search, reading the information at the end...that knowledge is really important, that it is clear
14:50:31 [Jennie]
...That has to be tested for
14:50:37 [Jennie]
...These look lovely
14:50:50 [Jennie]
...Most interesting - thanks so much for all the effort into these building blocks
14:50:54 [Jennie]
...The protocol testing group
14:51:06 [Jennie]
...We have to make sure that the protocols and the test case ones
14:51:14 [Jennie]
...Shouldn't be: you can do whatever you like
14:51:22 [Jennie]
...You need to test it with the range of disabilities that are appropriate
14:51:33 [Jennie]
...I would really want to review and comment on that protocol and test case
14:51:43 [Jennie] well as the subjective tests.
14:52:11 [Jennie]
...I would love to see that well defined
14:52:15 [Jennie] we know what is included
14:52:32 [Jennie]
...So we can test against the testing protocol
14:52:36 [Jennie]
...and know that we have done it
14:52:54 [Jennie]
Rachael: We are at the beginning of this, so I appreciate the chance to go over this with you
14:53:04 [Jennie]
...The protocol currently meets on Fridays, but they are looking for a new time
14:53:20 [Jennie]
...They are very much at the beginning of figuring out how to ensure the quality is there
14:53:32 [Jennie]
...They will also bring those to AG if you cannot make the protocol group
14:53:43 [Jennie]
...The protocols group are working on that problem
14:53:51 [Jennie]
Lisa: It will depend which day for me
14:53:51 [julierawe]
I'm still on the queue
14:53:58 [Jennie]
14:54:00 [lisa]
14:54:24 [lisa]
ack next
14:54:24 [Jennie]
Lisa: Please let us know when these meetings for review are up on AG schedule
14:54:33 [Jennie]
Julie: The test case is a really interesting idea
14:54:37 [Jennie]
...It may solve some problems
14:54:48 [Jennie]
...But I am wondering: if an organization can set its condition
14:54:58 [Jennie]
...If they say we are setting our reading level for college graduates
14:55:07 [Jennie]
...How can we encourage organizations to be more inclusive?
14:55:22 [Jennie]
...Is there work to have WCAG 3 reward groups that are more inclusive?
14:55:26 [Jennie]
Rachael: That is a great question
14:55:35 [Jennie]
...We have had conversations around different ways to score, however
14:55:45 [Jennie]
...The trend right now in our conversations is to put that off for the time being
14:55:52 [Jennie]
...We recognize that we need to solve the problem
14:56:02 [Jennie]
...But we need to clarify what we are talking about - scoping the basics
14:56:21 [Jennie]
...One way would be saying "yes, if you do this condition, here is guidance on what it should be if you are doing x
14:56:34 [Jennie]
...A school should be doing a grade 6, not college level
14:56:45 [Jennie]
...Or we can add points, but we just don't know yet how it will fit together
14:56:53 [Jennie]
...But it is still on the schedule
14:57:06 [Jennie]
Lisa: Is it better to run over a little bit, or pick this up again next week?
14:57:15 [Jennie]
Rachael: That is the bulk of what I wanted to do with the main group
14:57:28 [Jennie]
...There are 2 other concepts we are talking about right now
14:57:33 [Jennie]
...Functional needs
14:57:33 [Rachael]
14:57:44 [Jennie]
...And user needs (which is new and exploratory)
14:57:50 [Jennie]
...We don't need to discuss those now
14:58:31 [Jennie]
Lisa: The plain language subgroup is meeting after this. We will take a 5 minute break
14:58:34 [Jennie]
...And continue with examples
14:58:48 [Jennie]
...Anyone going to be involved in any of the WCAG 3 subgroups - I recommend you attend
14:59:10 [Jennie]
...It will be about how you add pieces into WCAG 3
14:59:33 [Rain]
zakim, make minutes
14:59:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', Rain
14:59:38 [Rain]
RRSAgent: make minutes
14:59:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Rain
15:00:18 [ShawnT]
15:04:19 [lisa]
topic: Easy to understand language examples
15:04:41 [lisa]
RRSAgent: make minutes
15:04:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate lisa
15:05:38 [lisa]
15:09:36 [JohnRochford]
+1 to not just about hearing
15:09:53 [stevelee]
Hey shawn, I'm happy to chat when you. I finally got my new PC setup just so.
15:09:56 [Jan_]
Jan_ has joined #coga
15:10:03 [Jan_]
present+ Jan
15:10:41 [lisa]
15:10:58 [lisa]
15:11:43 [Rachael]
15:15:48 [Rain]
+1 I'm okay with taking writing out, as well
15:15:57 [ShawnT]
15:19:03 [ShawnT]
could it be to recognize languages (English vs Spanish)?
15:22:25 [lisa]
15:25:09 [lisa]
ack next
15:26:05 [JohnRochford]
+1 to Jennie's point about reading with AAC devices.
15:27:37 [Rachael]
15:32:23 [lisa]
we are adding to the speeker notes, comunication disorder, mental health
15:33:15 [Rain]
Receptive communication
15:35:16 [lisa]
15:40:53 [Rain]
Overall structure of the document, clear and understandable
15:41:53 [Rain]
15:42:49 [Rain]
ack Rain
15:45:52 [ShawnT]
q+ to talk about expectations
15:46:11 [ShawnT]
15:46:52 [lisa]
rain I cant understand with an echo
15:49:02 [kirkwood]
15:55:13 [JohnRochford]
15:55:31 [lisa]
ack j
15:56:02 [Jennie]
*Have to drop - have a good week!
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16:01:53 [Rain]
I have to drop off!
16:01:53 [ShawnT]
I have to leave
16:02:24 [Jan_]
My apologies - I had to drop for another call.
16:02:48 [julierawe]
16:03:03 [Rain]
I have to leave, but thank you all! See you in May!
16:08:27 [kirkwood]
sorry was pinged on the hour
16:11:53 [lisa]
RRSAgent: make minutes
16:11:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate lisa
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