13:05:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #a11y-functional
13:05:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-a11y-functional-irc
13:05:29 <JakeAbma> present+
13:05:33 <Joshue108> Meeting: Functional Needs
13:05:47 <Joshue108> Scribe: Ad hoc
13:06:46 <krisanne_> krisanne_ has joined #a11y-functional
13:06:49 <Joshue108> TOPIC: Debrief from Outcomes Workshop
13:10:19 <Joshue108> JA: We looked at the WCAG SC and chose a functional need that was applicable, and the user need that was applicable.
13:10:28 <Joshue108> Those three things, are exactly what we have in our matrix
13:10:37 <Joshue108> The visual layout is different
13:10:59 <Joshue108> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294
13:11:08 <Joshue108> JA: So this what we are doing..
13:11:27 <Joshue108> We broke down SC, and I see similarities in what we do
13:11:41 <Joshue108> An outcome is synonymous with an SC with some small differences
13:11:57 <Joshue108> It is logical that the document that Alistair sent today is similar.
13:12:15 <Joshue108> So the exercises in the workshop are mapped to ours, but we look at the outcome under the SC
13:12:38 <Joshue108> They had more columns etc - and some links to understanding documents etc
13:12:41 <MichaelC> q+ to say convergent evolution
13:12:48 <MichaelC> q+ to say bring people along
13:12:50 <Joshue108> They are extras etc - next step really
13:12:53 <Todd> Todd has joined #a11y-functional
13:13:02 <MichaelC> q+ to say live with redoing
13:13:04 <Todd> present+
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13:13:10 <MichaelC> q+
13:14:09 <Joshue108> Not critical but optional right now
13:14:09 <Joshue108> I was happy to see these similarities - good thing to do. I'm not sure if this is how people understand our work..
13:14:20 <Joshue108> Any problems really related to choosing user needs can be confusing - and it's each to add user needs that are not applicable.
13:14:27 <Joshue108> So we need to be on the same page
13:14:56 <Joshue108> The lang attribute is about understanding - and should not get mixed up with other things for example.
13:15:22 <Joshue108> Thats a challenge to make sure the user need is well understood - we need to be strict.
13:15:24 <Joshue108> ack mi
13:15:40 <Joshue108> MC: I hear the concern about duplicate work - or related work.
13:15:46 <Joshue108> IMO we need to live with that.
13:16:03 <Joshue108> This group came to a model, that a different group came too - this is helpful as the model is robust.
13:16:30 <Joshue108> In the wider AG group, some are less advanced in their evolution, so we will need to walk people through this.
13:16:58 <Joshue108> We wont avoid a lot of duplication. We will need to square this away - so I encourage people to think in this way.
13:18:20 <Joshue108> JOC:  <makes some comments to say it was very useful>
13:18:31 <Joshue108> Next steps?
13:18:45 <Joshue108> JA: Will happen in the main call. They are doing that today.
13:19:09 <Joshue108> It will be a similar exercise - in a different form. Thats it.
13:19:32 <Joshue108> JA: It will be good to invite Alistair, Shawn and others to gain a common understanding.
13:19:51 <Joshue108> JOC: It would be good to demonstrate that.
13:20:16 <Joshue108> JA: We will take our main sheet and update - we will be able to do this FASTer
13:20:32 <Joshue108> It should match the AGWG approach
13:22:01 <Joshue108> ST: It is interesting - the AGWG group did get the idea from this group.
13:22:10 <Joshue108> Silver is looking to make progress.
13:22:34 <Joshue108> Kris: I've been looking at the draft - and would like to be able to share it in my organisation.
13:23:01 <Joshue108> People are often overwhelmed by WCAG etc so this abstraction is helpful
13:23:24 <Joshue108> TOPIC: A11y for Children CG
13:24:06 <Joshue108> ST: I'd like to preface discussion about this work. Jake asked earlier, why are the needs of Children different?
13:24:40 <Joshue108> We are working on an FAQ - we should find new needs that adults with cognitive disabilities may have, in education products for example.
13:25:01 <Joshue108> ST: The things that hit WCAG hit a broader range of user needs
13:25:28 <Joshue108> For children with disabilities - the requirements may be helpful for 100%
13:25:48 <Joshue108> Adults with cognitive disabilities benefit a lot from our work
13:25:59 <Joshue108> These techniques could be developed
13:26:18 <Joshue108> There are some key things
13:26:59 <Joshue108> We have an insight into the spreadsheet - so we can figure out if we should be writing a separate document or commenting on your work?
13:27:24 <Joshue108> Maud: I can share that other groups are also working on a11y for children
13:27:55 <Joshue108> The immersive group - attention on processes etc - child development is not fixed - and we are interested in social competencies.
13:28:06 <Joshue108> This flexibility in the process is important.
13:28:13 <Joshue108> q?
13:29:28 <Joshue108> JA:  To finish my initial thought - I was at a conference and talking with someone about the vulnerability of children around core competencies and what they go through
13:29:58 <Joshue108> Worry about harrassment online and the mind developing during puberty etc
13:30:27 <Joshue108> It was a like a wake up call - the difference between a fixed functional need that is clear - compared with a user need that changes quickly
13:30:32 <Joshue108> They change fast
13:30:38 <Joshue108> So do the requirements
13:31:06 <Joshue108> The development change in tandem with user needs is very interesting
13:31:24 <Joshue108> I can pass on her details to you
13:31:39 <Joshue108> Am learning
13:33:36 <Joshue108> JOC: This could be helpful for competing, quickly changing user needs
13:34:04 <Joshue108> ST: We are also looking at a matrix of contexts - regarding pronunciation for example
13:34:08 <Joshue108> <gives examples>
13:34:40 <Joshue108> There are different contexts
13:35:06 <Joshue108> With various accommodations - school, business and home culture etc
13:35:20 <Joshue108> This exists for adults but pronounced among children
13:35:33 <Joshue108> Could help people with cognitive impairments
13:36:37 <Joshue108> JOC: So how can work best together?
13:36:47 <Joshue108> ST: if could be good to work out a methodology
13:37:05 <Joshue108> ST: Can you share your matrix?
13:37:47 <Joshue108> JA: is it easier to use the simpler doc with the user needs - or make a copy of the Google doc, and then edit to point out what the difference should be?
13:38:25 <Joshue108> The user needs are likely the same.. but I don't know.
13:38:46 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16ZeCqTRTY0lmWvp1Xv_wO0iH1OzyECBa1UXQ_UeocjQ/edit#heading=h.4jiwp8jpc143
13:46:13 <Joshue108> ST: I'm happy for us to take a copy of that doc and mint our own version that we can then compare and share
13:46:38 <Joshue108> JA: Great - so we can have a common understanding
13:47:00 <Joshue108> JOC: Checking that all have access?
13:48:51 <Joshue108> TOPIC: Deceptive Patterns
13:49:27 <Joshue108> JOC: Todd has an update on some of the work
13:51:52 <Joshue108> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WKGPMiDL8CKcXWr0md09ZLwZEPdoxeNTNQsf8IuszqQ/edit#heading=h.6flbja9pmm8c
13:52:34 <Joshue108> Todd: I've been working on this
13:53:37 <Joshue108> JOC: <We workshop the sheet>
14:03:28 <Joshue108> JOC: No meeting this Thursday. Josh unavailable next week but back on April 5th
14:03:33 <Joshue108> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-a11y-functional-minutes.html Joshue108
14:03:45 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world
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