IRC log of editing on 2022-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-irc
16:01:32 [Travis]
Meeting: Web Editing WG Meeting March 10, 2022
16:01:41 [Travis]
rrsagent, make logs public
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scribe: Travis
16:05:53 [Travis]
Present+ Anupam
16:06:38 [Travis]
Topic: feature detection for clipboard
16:06:41 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170
16:07:28 [Travis]
snianu: Didn't have time to discuss internally; but authors should have an ability to get the available formats on the clipboard.
16:07:38 [Travis]
.. not really sure if this is should be a new API or not.
16:07:52 [Travis]
.. if the proposal sounds good to everyone then we don't have any objections.
16:08:06 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Will MS be able to take this up next month?
16:08:31 [Travis]
annevk: I was wondering what happens if you create a clipboard item for an unsupported format and try to write it?
16:08:39 [Travis]
snianu: chromium throws today.
16:08:59 [Travis]
annevk: Is that an OK single to know it isn't supported?
16:09:26 [Travis]
whsieh: I think that's right... If the author tries to write and it throws an exception...
16:09:52 [Travis]
.. Trying types until it doesn't throw is the current approach.
16:10:20 [Travis]
Travis: maybe that's good enough, barring any other customer signal?
16:11:03 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Scenario: say I have a format that takes a lot of time to prepare for a test (say WebP conversion before clipboard test)
16:11:36 [Travis]
.. if that's the case, then I understand why authors would like to know before doing all that work.
16:11:43 [Travis]
.. did I understand that correctly?
16:12:14 [Travis]
Anupam: in chromium, that's the way it is.
16:12:27 [whsieh]
those three are image/png, text/plain, and text/html I believe?
16:12:28 [Travis]
.. there are some "manditory" formats that everyone supports.
16:12:50 [Travis]
.. There are open questions about how some custom formats could become mandatory formats.
16:13:24 [Travis]
.. suppose we could check for the prefix?
16:14:03 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Scenario: I create a JS-based image format, then browsers change what they support. When I export to the clipboard I will need to keep a list of what browsers support and export as needed.
16:14:58 [Travis]
.. I might first try one that is accepted, then try again if it throws.
16:15:11 [Travis]
annevk: As I wrote... I think this does need addressing.
16:15:30 [Travis]
.. if you wanted to write multiple at a time, you won't know which one wasn't supported.
16:15:43 [Travis]
.. I think there is a real need for something like this.
16:15:55 [Travis]
.. alternative is all browsers support the same formats.
16:16:14 [AlexK]
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16:16:47 [Travis]
whsieh: I think there is compelling need if some browsers will support new formats that others won't... but in the current climate, this isn't very pressing.
16:16:59 [Travis]
.. Do agree, we should investigate this.
16:17:38 [Travis]
.. This is just about writing to the clipboard. The term "supports" is a little vague... would like to see a name more accurately reflecting that it's about writing.
16:17:49 [Travis]
.. I will bring it up with my peers.
16:18:03 [Travis]
johanneswilm: So we will want to hear from both Microsoft and Apple next meeting.
16:18:32 [Travis]
Annevk: on the name, I think "supports" is probably OK. Seems like the most prominent thing and there is precident.
16:18:39 [Travis]
.. I think it's OK from that perspective.
16:19:11 [Travis]
Topic: Remove clipboard write permission?
16:19:14 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/164
16:19:24 [Travis]
Anupam: I think we need Bo for this.
16:19:31 [Travis]
Annevk: +1
16:19:58 [Travis]
Topic: clarification on pickling
16:20:05 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/393
16:20:17 [Travis]
annevk: I haven't had time to look at this.
16:20:36 [Travis]
Anupam: opener hasn't responded to my comments.
16:21:09 [Travis]
.. concerns about writing 1000 of formats. (I tested and it does indeed bog-down my computer.)
16:21:19 [Travis]
.. I think a hundred is reasonable.
16:21:30 [Travis]
.. Went through security review and they were OK with that.
16:21:42 [Travis]
Annevk: are you saying global total is 100?
16:21:56 [Travis]
Anupam: I think there may be a security problem on your hands...
16:22:18 [Travis]
(Sorry that comment was Annevk)
16:23:04 [Travis]
Anupam: new windows APIs have a global limit.
16:24:03 [Travis]
Anupam: So, attack vector is that two origins use different custom formats to communicate. (Similar to socket connections.)
16:24:28 [Travis]
Travis: can you explain the attack?
16:25:06 [Travis]
annevk: one origin takes all 100 formats, then another tries to use a custom format and is denied.
16:26:50 [Travis]
.. Then the first origin can know which formats were attempted based on which ones had been added previously.
16:27:02 [Travis]
(editor's note: Sorry didn't capture that very well)
16:27:24 [Travis]
Annevk: suggests looking over: https://xsleaks.dev/
16:27:57 [Travis]
whsieh: Yep, this is why Webkit blocks cross-origin custom pasteboard access.
16:29:04 [Travis]
Travis: so some of us will need to revisit restrictions...?
16:29:27 [Travis]
Anupam: raising the limit to 16K is Windows' limit--that could be a problem.
16:29:39 [Travis]
annevk: you could add a limit-per-origin
16:29:44 [whsieh]
platform info is in the UA already, no?
16:30:11 [Travis]
.. Each type that the origin uses adds a "salt" to add randomization to prevent the other origin from guessing.
16:30:18 [Travis]
+1 (I like that)
16:31:22 [Travis]
johanneswilm: This is just some advice to chromium folks.
16:31:27 [Travis]
.. anything spec-wise?
16:32:01 [Travis]
Anupam: I think we need more discussion? Needs to be a limit and have it documented somewhere.
16:32:23 [Travis]
Topic: meeting times
16:32:26 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/359
16:32:53 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Masayuki could meet at other times...
16:33:18 [Travis]
.. we would like to have more inclusion. We currently have N. America, Europe. Would like to include folks in Asia.
16:34:03 [Travis]
.. last time we asked Masyuki if he wanted to attend--couldn't do it in 2021, want to check again.
16:34:25 [Travis]
Alex: I can contact Masayuki.
16:34:28 [Travis]
johanneswilm: great!
16:34:54 [Travis]
Topic: concern for screen reader users
16:34:57 [Travis]
github: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/15
16:35:25 [Travis]
johanneswilm: Last update: bo indicate no progress, will comeback next month? Can we discuss with without Bo present?
16:37:42 [Travis]
Travis: scanning the issue to try to understand.
16:37:59 [Travis]
Anupam: on iOS isn't the content overlaid?
16:38:09 [Travis]
whsieh: confirmed, yes that is what happens.
16:39:45 [Travis]
johanneswilm: on iOS/MacOS when a virtual keyboard is overlaying page content, does the screen reader treat the overlaid content as visible (e.g., "keyboard is visible"). Does Voiceover keep reading content underneath?
16:40:20 [Travis]
Action: whsieh to check with accessibility folks to see if screen readers continue reading content covered up by virtual keyboards? (Or similar overlays).
16:42:17 [Travis]
Travis: Had an opportunity to observe this behavior with screen reader users--it absolutely happens that screen readers keep reading what is underneath surprise popups (e.g., ads) that happen on popular pages all the time. (I'm not sure this is a new or unique problem.)
16:42:50 [Travis]
johanneswilm: was this what Bo was going to look into? Is this something the OS could address?
16:43:33 [Travis]
Anupam: not sure if the OS could address. In some cases OS is allowed to resize the content--other times, not so much.
16:45:42 [Travis]
johanneswilm: wondering is this is something that Firefox is concerned about?
16:47:21 [Travis]
annevk: I would suspect this would be resolved in the same way that IME resolves this issues.
16:47:50 [Travis]
... (IME for virtual keyboards). My brief assessment is that this should just fundamentally work.
16:48:32 [Travis]
.. I think we should ask for more details.
16:49:23 [Travis]
Action: ask @becka11y to help clarify the scenario in light of other things that can be occluded for screen readers.
16:50:08 [Travis]
johanneswilm: And that was the last topic!
16:50:52 [Travis]
end topic:
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topic: end
16:51:34 [Travis]
On TPAC: we need to prepare for a hybrid meeting regardless.
17:01:06 [Travis]
zakim, end the meeting
17:01:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Anupam
17:01:07 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:01:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:11 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Travis; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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Zakim has left #editing
17:01:42 [Travis]
Present+ Alex Keng
17:01:48 [Travis]
Present+ annevk
17:01:57 [Travis]
Present+ johanneswilm
17:02:03 [Travis]
Present+ Travis
17:02:12 [Travis]
Present+ whsieh
17:02:32 [Travis]
rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
17:02:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
17:04:40 [Travis]
Regrets BoCupp
17:05:53 [Travis]
regrets: BoCupp
17:06:09 [Travis]
rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
17:06:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
17:06:49 [Travis]
chair: johanneswilm
17:06:57 [Travis]
rrsagent, please draft minutes v2
17:06:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis