16:01:08 RRSAgent has joined #editing 16:01:08 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-irc 16:01:32 Meeting: Web Editing WG Meeting March 10, 2022 16:01:41 rrsagent, make logs public 16:05:42 scribe: Travis 16:05:53 Present+ Anupam 16:06:38 Topic: feature detection for clipboard 16:06:41 github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170 16:07:28 snianu: Didn't have time to discuss internally; but authors should have an ability to get the available formats on the clipboard. 16:07:38 .. not really sure if this is should be a new API or not. 16:07:52 .. if the proposal sounds good to everyone then we don't have any objections. 16:08:06 johanneswilm: Will MS be able to take this up next month? 16:08:31 annevk: I was wondering what happens if you create a clipboard item for an unsupported format and try to write it? 16:08:39 snianu: chromium throws today. 16:08:59 annevk: Is that an OK single to know it isn't supported? 16:09:26 whsieh: I think that's right... If the author tries to write and it throws an exception... 16:09:52 .. Trying types until it doesn't throw is the current approach. 16:10:20 Travis: maybe that's good enough, barring any other customer signal? 16:11:03 johanneswilm: Scenario: say I have a format that takes a lot of time to prepare for a test (say WebP conversion before clipboard test) 16:11:36 .. if that's the case, then I understand why authors would like to know before doing all that work. 16:11:43 .. did I understand that correctly? 16:12:14 Anupam: in chromium, that's the way it is. 16:12:27 those three are image/png, text/plain, and text/html I believe? 16:12:28 .. there are some "manditory" formats that everyone supports. 16:12:50 .. There are open questions about how some custom formats could become mandatory formats. 16:13:24 .. suppose we could check for the prefix? 16:14:03 johanneswilm: Scenario: I create a JS-based image format, then browsers change what they support. When I export to the clipboard I will need to keep a list of what browsers support and export as needed. 16:14:58 .. I might first try one that is accepted, then try again if it throws. 16:15:11 annevk: As I wrote... I think this does need addressing. 16:15:30 .. if you wanted to write multiple at a time, you won't know which one wasn't supported. 16:15:43 .. I think there is a real need for something like this. 16:15:55 .. alternative is all browsers support the same formats. 16:16:14 AlexK has joined #editing 16:16:47 whsieh: I think there is compelling need if some browsers will support new formats that others won't... but in the current climate, this isn't very pressing. 16:16:59 .. Do agree, we should investigate this. 16:17:38 .. This is just about writing to the clipboard. The term "supports" is a little vague... would like to see a name more accurately reflecting that it's about writing. 16:17:49 .. I will bring it up with my peers. 16:18:03 johanneswilm: So we will want to hear from both Microsoft and Apple next meeting. 16:18:32 Annevk: on the name, I think "supports" is probably OK. Seems like the most prominent thing and there is precident. 16:18:39 .. I think it's OK from that perspective. 16:19:11 Topic: Remove clipboard write permission? 16:19:14 github: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/164 16:19:24 Anupam: I think we need Bo for this. 16:19:31 Annevk: +1 16:19:58 Topic: clarification on pickling 16:20:05 github: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/393 16:20:17 annevk: I haven't had time to look at this. 16:20:36 Anupam: opener hasn't responded to my comments. 16:21:09 .. concerns about writing 1000 of formats. (I tested and it does indeed bog-down my computer.) 16:21:19 .. I think a hundred is reasonable. 16:21:30 .. Went through security review and they were OK with that. 16:21:42 Annevk: are you saying global total is 100? 16:21:56 Anupam: I think there may be a security problem on your hands... 16:22:18 (Sorry that comment was Annevk) 16:23:04 Anupam: new windows APIs have a global limit. 16:24:03 Anupam: So, attack vector is that two origins use different custom formats to communicate. (Similar to socket connections.) 16:24:28 Travis: can you explain the attack? 16:25:06 annevk: one origin takes all 100 formats, then another tries to use a custom format and is denied. 16:26:50 .. Then the first origin can know which formats were attempted based on which ones had been added previously. 16:27:02 (editor's note: Sorry didn't capture that very well) 16:27:24 Annevk: suggests looking over: https://xsleaks.dev/ 16:27:57 whsieh: Yep, this is why Webkit blocks cross-origin custom pasteboard access. 16:29:04 Travis: so some of us will need to revisit restrictions...? 16:29:27 Anupam: raising the limit to 16K is Windows' limit--that could be a problem. 16:29:39 annevk: you could add a limit-per-origin 16:29:44 platform info is in the UA already, no? 16:30:11 .. Each type that the origin uses adds a "salt" to add randomization to prevent the other origin from guessing. 16:30:18 +1 (I like that) 16:31:22 johanneswilm: This is just some advice to chromium folks. 16:31:27 .. anything spec-wise? 16:32:01 Anupam: I think we need more discussion? Needs to be a limit and have it documented somewhere. 16:32:23 Topic: meeting times 16:32:26 github: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/359 16:32:53 johanneswilm: Masayuki could meet at other times... 16:33:18 .. we would like to have more inclusion. We currently have N. America, Europe. Would like to include folks in Asia. 16:34:03 .. last time we asked Masyuki if he wanted to attend--couldn't do it in 2021, want to check again. 16:34:25 Alex: I can contact Masayuki. 16:34:28 johanneswilm: great! 16:34:54 Topic: concern for screen reader users 16:34:57 github: https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/15 16:35:25 johanneswilm: Last update: bo indicate no progress, will comeback next month? Can we discuss with without Bo present? 16:37:42 Travis: scanning the issue to try to understand. 16:37:59 Anupam: on iOS isn't the content overlaid? 16:38:09 whsieh: confirmed, yes that is what happens. 16:39:45 johanneswilm: on iOS/MacOS when a virtual keyboard is overlaying page content, does the screen reader treat the overlaid content as visible (e.g., "keyboard is visible"). Does Voiceover keep reading content underneath? 16:40:20 Action: whsieh to check with accessibility folks to see if screen readers continue reading content covered up by virtual keyboards? (Or similar overlays). 16:42:17 Travis: Had an opportunity to observe this behavior with screen reader users--it absolutely happens that screen readers keep reading what is underneath surprise popups (e.g., ads) that happen on popular pages all the time. (I'm not sure this is a new or unique problem.) 16:42:50 johanneswilm: was this what Bo was going to look into? Is this something the OS could address? 16:43:33 Anupam: not sure if the OS could address. In some cases OS is allowed to resize the content--other times, not so much. 16:45:42 johanneswilm: wondering is this is something that Firefox is concerned about? 16:47:21 annevk: I would suspect this would be resolved in the same way that IME resolves this issues. 16:47:50 ... (IME for virtual keyboards). My brief assessment is that this should just fundamentally work. 16:48:32 .. I think we should ask for more details. 16:49:23 Action: ask @becka11y to help clarify the scenario in light of other things that can be occluded for screen readers. 16:50:08 johanneswilm: And that was the last topic! 16:50:52 end topic: 16:51:05 topic: end 16:51:34 On TPAC: we need to prepare for a hybrid meeting regardless. 17:01:06 zakim, end the meeting 17:01:06 As of this point the attendees have been Anupam 17:01:07 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 17:01:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Zakim 17:01:11 I am happy to have been of service, Travis; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:01:15 Zakim has left #editing 17:01:42 Present+ Alex Keng 17:01:48 Present+ annevk 17:01:57 Present+ johanneswilm 17:02:03 Present+ Travis 17:02:12 Present+ whsieh 17:02:32 rrsagent, please draft minutes v2 17:02:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis 17:04:40 Regrets BoCupp 17:05:53 regrets: BoCupp 17:06:09 rrsagent, please draft minutes v2 17:06:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis 17:06:49 chair: johanneswilm 17:06:57 rrsagent, please draft minutes v2 17:06:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-editing-minutes.html Travis