12:01:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-profile
12:01:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/09-wot-profile-irc
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12:04:11 <kaz> meeting: WoT Profile
12:04:17 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-profile
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12:04:30 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Lagally
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12:05:26 <benfrancis> On my way, just trying to find the WebEx details which are not on the new calendar invite.
12:06:32 <kaz> present+ Ben_Francis
12:07:35 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:08:57 <dape> scribe: dape
12:09:12 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot-profile
12:10:48 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/107#issuecomment-1062850204
12:10:59 <kaz> i/https/topic: Agenda/
12:11:44 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#WoT_Architecture_.28Profile.29_-_March_9nd.2C_2022
12:11:59 <kaz> i|https|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#WoT_Architecture_.28Profile.29_-_March_9nd.2C_2022 agenda for today|
12:12:04 <dape> TOPIC:  previous minutes
12:12:17 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-profile-minutes.html Mar-2
12:12:20 <dape> ML: <walks through minutes>
12:13:00 <kaz> i/previous/ben: above proposal to be added for the Event Model discussion
12:14:29 <dape> ... any objections
12:14:44 <dape> ... none -> minutes approved
12:15:03 <dape> TOPIC: Event Model
12:15:19 <dape> ML: circling around a lot
12:16:01 <dape> ... we do have event affordance
12:16:29 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
12:16:40 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
12:16:40 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Lagally, Ben_Francis, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Ryuichi_Matsukura
12:17:02 <dape> ... on protocol bindings we have a reference to server sent events (SSE)
12:17:13 <dape> ... a living standard
12:17:28 <kaz> q+
12:17:44 <dape> ... we also have the op's
12:17:53 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
12:17:56 <dape> ... and text to identify SSE et cetera
12:18:34 <kaz> s/a living/for the HTML living/
12:18:35 <dape> ... for example 24, https://w3c.github.io/wot-profile/#example-24
12:18:36 <kaz> q-
12:18:57 <kaz> q+
12:19:07 <dape> BF: w.r.t. reference ... there is a redirect in place
12:19:43 <dape> Kaz: living standard... does not necessarily mean it is not stable
12:20:27 <dape> ML: That means we need to specify a non-normative section in a living document
12:20:31 <dape> ... not ideal
12:20:47 <dape> BF: Only introduction is non-normative
12:21:01 <dape> ML: w.r.t. to Event discussions
12:21:08 <dape> ... different opinions
12:21:12 <kaz> ack k
12:21:27 <dape> ... implement all event models?
12:21:59 <kaz> s/not stable/not stable. so we should refer to it (HTML Living Standard) directly./
12:22:06 <dape> ... consumer that does not need event stream .. does not need to implement certain parts
12:22:21 <dape> ... in PlugFest many devices do not support events
12:22:34 <dape> ... SSE may not be very scalable
12:22:56 <dape> ... SSE is the only way would mean excluding other use-cases
12:23:04 <dape> ... limit deployment scenarios
12:23:16 <dape> ... got concern ... interoperability
12:23:35 <dape> ... e.g., WebHook ... not able to open server port
12:23:49 <dape> q?
12:23:50 <Ege> q+
12:23:57 <dape> ML: Kind of stucked now
12:24:28 <dape> Ege: for me the main problem is the use-cases are not compatible
12:24:35 <dape> ... due to this we get sucked
12:24:47 <benfrancis> q?
12:24:57 <dape> ... different profiles? .. let people compose them
12:25:06 <kaz> s/stucked/stuck/
12:25:22 <dape> ... goal of profile is to "miss" some use-cases .. but have interop across the others
12:25:24 <kaz> s/sucked/stuck/
12:25:34 <dape> ML: Interesting statement
12:26:19 <dape> ML: limiting the profile .. is not what we should be doing
12:26:30 <dape> ML: I listed 4 alternatives with pros and cons
12:26:34 <dape> ... there might be more
12:26:50 <dape> ... 1. non consensus -> remove events out of profile
12:27:20 <dape> ... 2. define 3 variants core+XX for SEE, longpoll and webhook
12:28:22 <dape> ... 3. include 3 events  mechanisms
12:28:47 <dape> ... event support is optional
12:28:58 <dape> ... 4. mandate single event model
12:29:11 <Ege> q?
12:29:14 <Ege> ack e
12:29:33 <dape> ML: proposal from ben
12:29:49 <dape> .. --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/blob/main/contributions/2021-12-02-WoT-Profiles-with-discussion.pdf
12:30:19 <dape> Ege: another option is having different profiles .. not just about events
12:30:27 <dape> ... discussion client vs. server
12:31:17 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:31:19 <dape> ML: I don't see that point
12:31:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:31:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/09-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:31:52 <dape> Ege: Webhook is server to client
12:32:14 <dape> ... in MQTT it is even client to client
12:32:22 <kaz> q+
12:32:27 <dape> ML: Not relevant since we focus on HTTP
12:32:41 <dape> ML: I don't see Server to Client
12:33:06 <dape> ... I see Servient to Servient .. for webhook
12:33:19 <kaz> qq+ Ege
12:33:23 <kaz> q- Ege
12:34:01 <dape> Ege: if we are to use webhook .. it is Servient to Servient .. if we don't use it is server to client
12:34:36 <dape> ML: Servient to Server is missing
12:35:37 <dape> Ege: things pushing data to cloud... use-case not in core profile
12:35:44 <dape> ... things are not pro-active
12:35:56 <dape> ML: core profile is silent about that
12:36:05 <dape> Ege: I don't think so
12:36:25 <dape> ... client is to use HTTP GET
12:36:36 <dape> ML: it can be more than a client
12:36:49 <dape> ... no hard differentiation
12:37:17 <benfrancis> q+
12:37:34 <dape> ... profile does not prescribe what and how it needs to be implemented
12:37:54 <kaz> q?
12:38:25 <dape> Ege: profile constraints consumers
12:38:39 <dape> Kaz: WoT in general defines software application layer
12:38:47 <dape> ... between servients
12:39:34 <dape> ... it should not be discussed here ... it should be discussed in bindings
12:39:43 <kaz> ack k
12:39:53 <dape> ML: current profile picks TD spec
12:40:06 <dape> ... describing protocol binding (HTTP)
12:41:27 <dape> BF: On Kazes point. Core profile does not use protocol binding template.
12:41:59 <dape> ... profile defines consumer is HTTP client, producer is HTTP server
12:42:23 <dape> ML: Does anyone see other alternatives to the 4 I mentioned
12:42:25 <kaz> s|it should not be discussed here|so I don't think we should discuss the detail on data transfer with various concrete protocols and network device settings for that, e.g., client/server, client/broker, server/servient|
12:42:41 <dape> ML: back to Bens proposal
12:42:44 <dape> ... https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/blob/main/contributions/2021-12-02-WoT-Profiles-with-discussion.pdf
12:42:44 <kaz> s/in bindings/in the Binding Templates/
12:43:03 <kaz> s/Kazes point/Kaz's point/
12:43:33 <kaz> s/Bens proposal/Ben's proposal/
12:43:52 <dape> BF: the only option I see is #4
12:44:01 <dape> .... single event model per profile
12:44:28 <dape> ... core profile requires  to be server&client
12:44:45 <dape> ... each profile should only use a single protocol binding
12:45:24 <dape> ... I propose separate profile ... for webhooks
12:45:48 <dape> ... that profile can be composed with other profiles .. like core profile
12:46:10 <dape> ... suggest also to rename core profile to http-json profile
12:46:19 <dape> Ege: +1
12:46:57 <dape> ML: implication, http-json has mandatory event model ?
12:47:07 <dape> BF: yes, otherwise there is no interop
12:47:39 <dape> ML: just event mechanisms part of profile is probably not sufficient
12:49:34 <dape> BF: mechanism setting property and event as client is difficult
12:50:16 <benfrancis> q?
12:50:23 <benfrancis> q-
12:50:24 <dape> ML: TD only for events does not make sense
12:50:33 <dape> ... why exclude other interactions
12:51:09 <dape> BF: high complexity having all devices being server&client
12:51:32 <dape> ML: use addon mechanism for event core+XX
12:51:39 <Ege> q+
12:51:41 <dape> ... common baseline for actions and properties
12:52:02 <dape> ... many use-cases don't need eventing
12:52:12 <dape> Ege: do not like "variants"
12:52:39 <dape> ... variants.. what would mean core+webhook? servient to servient?
12:53:00 <dape> ... conflicts with implementation complexity requirement
12:53:16 <dape> ML: SSE on cloud is not realistic
12:53:20 <dape> ... it is not scaling
12:53:40 <dape> BF: observing properties has same problem
12:53:43 <dape> ML: Correct
12:53:57 <dape> .... device needs to send updated property notifications
12:54:14 <dape> ... kills battery-driven devices
12:54:18 <dape> ... to keep connection open
12:55:00 <dape> BF: it might be that this profile does not fit this use-case
12:55:04 <Ege> +1
12:55:12 <dape> ... maybe it needs own profile
12:55:25 <dape> ML: It seems we don't find *one* profile
12:55:30 <dape> ... suggest 2 profiles
12:55:39 <dape> ... core+webhook
12:55:42 <dape> ... core+sse
12:55:47 <dape> ... not sure about longpoll
12:56:29 <dape> BF: I don't this is the right way
12:56:48 <dape> .. to go
12:56:56 <dape> BF: 2 profiles
12:57:04 <dape> ... core+webhook is wonrg to think about
12:57:12 <dape> ... 1. profile client vs server
12:57:22 <dape> ... 2. profile client vs client
12:57:34 <dape> s/wonrg/wrong
12:57:49 <dape> ML: We have different models in our mind.. I think
12:58:03 <dape> ... all things cause implementation overhead
12:58:20 <dape> ...easy way would be go on without any eventing
12:58:29 <benfrancis> q?
12:58:35 <Ege> ack e
12:58:52 <dape> BF: observing properties out also?
12:58:54 <dape> ML: Yes
12:59:45 <dape> BF: Observation: If we remove events
13:00:05 <dape> ... in TD cancelaction and queryaction is on risk also
13:00:14 <dape> ... in profile not that much left
13:00:24 <dape> ... core profile would be pointless
13:00:34 <dape> Ege: not completely useless
13:01:02 <dape> ... constraining TD
13:01:30 <dape> ML: I think we have additional things that are causing problems
13:01:36 <dape> ... e.g. oneOf values
13:02:50 <dape> BF: for the WebThing project it looses attraction
13:05:10 <kaz> [adjourned]
13:05:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:05:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/09-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
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