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13:14:41 <Joshue108> MEETING: Functional needs
13:14:55 <Joshue108> present+ Todd, Jake, Josh
13:15:07 <Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
13:15:11 <JakeAbma> JakeAbma has joined #silver-functional
13:15:15 <Joshue108> Topic: Deceptive Patterns
13:15:17 <JakeAbma> present+
13:15:25 <ToddL> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WKGPMiDL8CKcXWr0md09ZLwZEPdoxeNTNQsf8IuszqQ/edit#heading=h.6flbja9pmm8c
13:15:38 <Joshue108> Todd: Would like some feedback
13:16:00 <Joshue108> I started writing outcomes for deceptive patterns that harm users
13:16:20 <Joshue108> Should they be broken into categories
13:16:39 <Joshue108> <Josh, and Jake review>
13:17:48 <Joshue108> JOC: What is the failed list?
13:18:19 <Joshue108> Todd: I've gotten feedback from the community, on what maybe deceptive patterns
13:18:42 <Joshue108> JOC: You think all these things fall under that category?
13:18:47 <Joshue108> Todd: Yes
13:18:58 <Joshue108> We could get some feedback about that list.
13:19:08 <Joshue108> Some items may be out of scope
13:19:27 <Joshue108> JOC: There may be greater context needed
13:19:38 <Joshue108> Look at the hover example, very broad
13:20:13 <Joshue108> JOC: So there are issues around context - the pattern in itself may be ok for some users but problematic for others
13:20:18 <Joshue108> Todd: Yes
13:20:35 <Joshue108> JOC: Do we need to then identify what are problems for people with disabilities?
13:20:53 <Joshue108> Todd: I'd like to break this category into smaller pieces
13:21:53 <Joshue108> JOC: I see these all over, a la double cookie banners
13:21:57 <Joshue108> JOC: Jake?
13:22:01 <Joshue108> JA: This is a great list
13:22:25 <Joshue108> They can be grouped - and then based on that create the outcome text
13:22:52 <Joshue108> That cover these scenarios - as an exercise. I suggest we go  from top to bottom and review
13:26:30 <Joshue108> JOC: Do we need to define intent for Deceptive patterns?
13:26:51 <Joshue108> Todd: Yes, but it may not be intentional - could be just bad practice regardless
13:27:02 <Joshue108> JA: I don't think that is up to us
13:29:05 <Joshue108> JOC: I think we shouild review together - I'd like Michael to see this
13:29:17 <Joshue108> Todd: +1, I'd like to weed some things out
13:29:44 <Joshue108> Todd: I'd like to put non purposeful anti-patterns into its own list.
13:30:12 <Joshue108> JOC: Lets review on Tues - will add that to agenda
13:32:09 <Joshue108> JOC: There are a bunch of user functions there also
13:32:20 <Joshue108> JA: They can be reviewed and distributed
13:33:44 <Joshue108> JA: Then we can look at finding outcomes and then add
13:33:48 <Joshue108> JOC: Sounds good.
13:37:14 <Joshue108> <Jake gives over of new tag and formatting tweaks to Matrix>
13:38:58 <Joshue108> JA: Overview of Summary Outcomes and mapping
13:39:05 <Joshue108> We have some questions for Todd..
13:39:26 <Joshue108> Regarding error prevention and anxiety prevention.
13:39:44 <Joshue108> Around re-assuring remedy instructions
13:39:55 <Joshue108> JA: I get that - they need to support the user
13:40:23 <Joshue108> Is that a good fit?
13:40:30 <Joshue108> Todd: Yes, good fit
13:40:58 <Joshue108> Both Jake and Todd like 'reassuring instructions'
13:41:46 <Joshue108> JA: What is meant by 'error message in consistent interface'?
13:42:06 <Joshue108> Todd: That was a case where there is a multi step form..
13:42:29 <Joshue108> JOC: Many sections that respond or change to input
13:42:33 <Joshue108> Todd: Yeah
13:43:05 <Joshue108> JA: Relates to 3.2.4 Consistent Identification
13:44:21 <Joshue108> Todd: Or if the error message moves during validation
13:45:18 <Joshue108> JA: Next week we can look at the moderated form input and Alert awareness items
13:47:35 <Joshue108> JA: I have 6 others on preventing errors
13:47:43 <Joshue108> Todd: I've a Q
13:48:24 <Joshue108> When we started the errors doc, I noted there are lots of people who when they enter one character into an input field, an error is thrown?
13:48:42 <Joshue108> JA: Is this like being shown errors when you are not done?
13:48:49 <Joshue108> Todd: Yeah -
13:49:07 <Joshue108> JA: This could go in deceptive pattern. Error instructions.
13:50:08 <Joshue108> JOC: I've added that to the fails in our Deceptive Patterns doc
13:51:01 <Joshue108> JA: Discusses 'Instructions' for Outcomes summary
13:52:00 <Joshue108> JA: WHat about the relationship between a component and an error
13:52:26 <Joshue108> q+ to say this could help with the error messaging integrity in UIs where content changes
13:52:35 <Joshue108> q+
13:54:40 <Joshue108> JOC: What about component chunks? And related error prevention and presentation
13:55:22 <Joshue108> Rather than errors on an <input> field level only - could be used in modular chunks? And WCAG could have an SC that covers this?
14:01:21 <Joshue108> JA:  Now we can remove 'Make recoverable'
14:01:30 <Joshue108> JOC: As we have them covered
14:01:48 <Joshue108> JA: I will add new Summary outcomes to the main sheet
14:01:55 <Joshue108> JOC: Sounds good
14:02:32 <Joshue108> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:02:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-silver-functional-minutes.html Joshue108
14:02:47 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world