23:52:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:52:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-epub-irc
23:52:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:52:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:53:03 <dauwhe> meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:53:06 <dauwhe> present+
23:53:25 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Mar/0000.html
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23:58:46 <toshiakikoike> present+
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23:59:28 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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00:00:37 <duga> present+
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00:01:03 <wendyreid> present+
00:01:22 <shiestyle> present+
00:01:40 <duga> scribe+
00:02:09 <mgarrish> present+
00:03:15 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2007
00:03:21 <duga> dauwhe: Duration values in TTS
00:03:23 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2027
00:03:33 <duga> ... see issue and pull request
00:04:10 <duga> ... historically we required a duration value for MO, but there is a question about what happens when there is no accompanying audio
00:04:22 <duga> ... which means TTS will render the paragraph
00:04:58 <duga> ... We are acknowledging it isn't common, but we need to cover it in the spec
00:05:07 <duga> ... Matt, summary?
00:05:28 <duga> mgarrish: Not much to say, but the spec is a little wordy/redundant
00:05:41 <duga> ... I suggest shortening, but overall am happy
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00:06:11 <duga> dauwhe: Some comment about making the duration a 'should', but I am against that
00:06:31 <duga> mgarrish: agreed. I am not even sure how common TTS is
00:06:33 <wendyreid> q+
00:07:02 <duga> dauwhe: And you won't have MO if you are relying on TTS anyway
00:07:02 <dauwhe> ack we
00:07:26 <duga> wendyreid: Using MO for TTS is pretty much overkill
00:07:53 <dauwhe> q?
00:07:54 <duga> ... European A11y act requires TTS in RSes, so TTS will be more common
00:08:19 <MURATA> +q
00:08:20 <zheng_xu__> zheng_xu__ has joined #epub
00:08:28 <dauwhe> ack mur
00:08:32 <duga> mgarrish: We did TTS previously, but not as MO. Seems like this is more theoretical than anything. Happy to leave as is
00:08:37 <zheng_xu__> present+
00:09:08 <duga> MURATA: DAISY in Japan has MO always, but it is pre-recorded
00:09:18 <dauwhe> q?
00:09:24 <duga> dauwhe: We will clean up the PR and close the issue
00:09:54 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge PR 2027 after wording is confirmed, and close issue 2007
00:09:56 <mgarrish> +1
00:09:57 <dauwhe> +1
00:09:57 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:09:57 <wendyreid> +1
00:10:00 <shiestyle> +1
00:10:01 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:10:02 <zheng_xu__> +1
00:10:02 <duga> +1
00:10:05 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR 2027 after wording is confirmed, and close issue 2007
00:10:06 <dlazin> +1
00:10:09 <dlazin> present+
00:10:10 <MURATA> +1
00:10:29 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2023
00:10:52 <duga> dauwhe: Major rewrite of OCF to clarify URLs
00:11:22 <duga> ... Partly to help clarify where relative URLs could reach (that is, not out of the package)
00:12:16 <duga> ... First issue is to clarify in simple language what is legal now
00:12:24 <dlazin> q+
00:12:32 <duga> ... I am in favor of clarifying
00:12:33 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:12:44 <duga> dlazin: Not sure what Ivan wants
00:13:04 <duga> ... Is he asking for an example? Or something else?
00:13:22 <mgarrish> q+
00:13:38 <duga> dauwhe: I think an example of two explaining why these things are bad makes sense
00:13:41 <MURATA> +q
00:13:45 <dauwhe> ack mg
00:14:15 <duga> mgarrish: I think Ivan wants some plain English explaining what all this means without having to understand the processing model
00:14:48 <duga> dauwhe: Maybe just "you can't use URLs like this and that", etc
00:15:01 <dauwhe> ack mur
00:15:25 <duga> MURATA: I am concerned between discrepancies our spec and whatwg
00:15:46 <duga> ... Which could change any time
00:15:48 <mgarrish> q+
00:15:59 <dauwhe> ack mg
00:16:01 <duga> dauwhe: This is a non-normative section
00:16:16 <duga> MURATA: I am concerned with the entire section. Maybe a new issue is needed?
00:16:44 <duga> mgarrish: This is epub specific to handle the case of the virtual container
00:16:49 <duga> q+
00:16:52 <dauwhe> ack du
00:16:57 <wendyreid> scribe+
00:17:15 <wendyreid> duga: I think when we were looking at this, I don't think we're changing anything the URL spec says
00:17:36 <wendyreid> ... we're putting some constraints on behaviours of types of URLs you can use as base
00:17:43 <wendyreid> ... it is still worth you going through it
00:17:47 <dauwhe> q?
00:18:26 <duga> dauwhe: It looks messy because it is a hard problem and it very tricky to fully explain (using formal language)
00:18:51 <duga> ... This is our best attempt to use the URL spec language and concepts to define what we want
00:19:04 <duga> ... But please do review and file issues
00:19:22 <dauwhe> q?
00:19:28 <duga> MURATA: And this issue would and non-normative language?
00:19:31 <duga> dauwhe: Yes
00:19:34 <duga> wendyreid: Yes
00:20:10 <duga> dauwhe: Not really ready to have a resolution - someone needs to add language
00:20:49 <duga> MURATA: This is not the first time I have encountered this problem, and specifying it is very difficult
00:20:55 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2024
00:21:17 <duga> dauwhe: Our other issue is similar. When we did this we lost a requirement that there be a resource at the end of the path
00:21:37 <duga> ... originally we had 1. not leak and 2. must exist
00:21:41 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2028
00:22:01 <duga> ... We lost part 2. We should put it back. There is already a PR
00:22:18 <duga> mgarrish: We just need to put the existence text back
00:22:28 <duga> dauwhe: Yes, and it sounds like the PR does just that
00:22:42 <duga> ... I am in favor of merging
00:22:47 <dlazin> q+
00:22:51 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:23:17 <duga> dlazin: I don't know if it follows that there must always be a thing that is referenced
00:23:57 <wendyreid> q+
00:23:57 <duga> ... For instance a book on how to write epub that shows errors (eg this is what it looks like when a resource is missing)
00:24:24 <duga> ... The cases are rare, but I can imagine some
00:24:35 <mgarrish> q+
00:24:37 <duga> ... and there are plenty of ways to create bad content
00:24:42 <dauwhe> ack we
00:25:06 <duga> wendyreid: Going with must on this, because nothing stops people from ignoring epubcheck
00:25:08 <dauwhe> q+
00:25:47 <duga> ... In general epubcheck is heavily relied on by publishers to tell them of problems
00:26:08 <dauwhe> ack mg
00:26:13 <duga> ... and this will more often than not help those publishers find problems
00:26:23 <duga> mgarrish: I basically agree with wendyreid
00:26:33 <duga> ... epubcheck does look for this now
00:26:53 <duga> ... There are other things epubcheck will flag
00:27:31 <duga> ... This seems like a can of worms to change, and error has worked really well to date
00:27:34 <dlazin> q+
00:27:44 <dauwhe> q-
00:27:46 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:28:17 <duga> dlazin: Those are persuasive arguments
00:29:34 <duga> dlazin: I thought epubcheck gave warnings on shoulds, isn't that good enough?
00:29:43 <duga> wendyreid: Errors scare them more
00:30:09 <duga> dlazin: I am ok with must, but odd that epubcheck is preflight and a conformance checker
00:30:42 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge PR 2028, close issue 2024
00:30:46 <duga> dauwhe: Propose merging 2028
00:30:47 <dauwhe> +1
00:30:49 <mgarrish> +1
00:30:49 <dlazin> +1
00:30:50 <shiestyle> +1
00:30:51 <duga> +1
00:30:51 <wendyreid> +1
00:30:54 <zheng_xu__> +1
00:30:56 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:31:00 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR 2028, close issue 2024
00:31:25 <duga> dauwhe: AOB?
00:31:53 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2012
00:32:22 <duga> shiestyle: FL a11y issue was raised (see issue)
00:32:46 <duga> ... MURATA, what do you think?
00:32:53 <wendyreid> q+
00:33:02 <duga> MURATA: I do not understand the practical implications
00:33:28 <duga> shiestyle: <Japanese>
00:33:40 <duga> MURATA: Informational document <Japanese>
00:34:20 <duga> MURATA: <Japanese> DAISY <Japanese>
00:34:34 <duga> shiestyle: <Japanese>
00:34:40 <duga> MURATA: Yes
00:34:44 <dauwhe> ack ween
00:34:47 <dauwhe> ack wen
00:34:52 <duga> MURATA: Will this have any impact on 3.3?
00:34:55 <duga> wendyreid: No
00:35:32 <duga> ... These are not published, and would only be WG notes, neither on REC track
00:35:54 <duga> ... We can add something about image dominated publications (or add more)
00:36:34 <duga> ... We have been trying to avoid discussing a single content type, but we can attempt to differentiate between mainly image FL and text based FL
00:37:02 <duga> MURATA: I would like to make this more obvious - Image based FL content is not accessible. Period.
00:37:37 <duga> wendyreid: We wouldn't really put this into core anyway, it would be part of a11y if we did add it
00:37:53 <duga> ... There are a lot of problems, and we really can't standardize yet
00:38:19 <dlazin> q+
00:38:23 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:38:27 <duga> dauwhe: Looks like we have a path forward
00:38:56 <duga> dlazin: I heard back from MDN today, they have approved our proposals to add publishing related content at MDN
00:39:07 <duga> ... Now we just have to write the docs
00:39:21 <dlazin> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Related
00:39:31 <zheng_xu__> q+
00:39:37 <duga> ... We have an outline for minimum viable, but not time to actually do it now
00:39:46 <dauwhe> ack zh
00:39:51 <dlazin> https://github.com/dlazin/mdn-yari/blob/main/kumascript/macros/EPUBRef.ejs
00:39:52 <duga> ... but we do have an outline if anyone wants to help
00:40:20 <duga> zheng_xu__: In the CG we have a taskforce for MDN, can we assign it to you?
00:40:33 <dauwhe> q?
00:40:40 <duga> dlazin: Yes, I knew it existed and the TF connected me to the MDN people
00:40:59 <duga> zheng_xu__: I will add you to the CG issue
00:41:30 <duga> dlazin: I do have the previous drafts
00:41:34 <zheng_xu__> here is the CG issue
00:41:35 <zheng_xu__> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/10
00:42:03 <duga> dauwhe: The MDN format is weird
00:42:37 <dauwhe> Zakim, end meeting
00:42:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, duga, wendyreid, shiestyle, mgarrish, zheng_xu__, dlazin
00:42:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:42:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:42:42 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:42:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:45:16 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: bye
00:45:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items