17:57:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:57:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-aria-irc
17:57:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:57:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:57:05 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:57:09 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:57:16 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:57:16 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:57:17 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220303T130000
17:57:17 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:57:17 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3trv67o
17:57:17 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3Mg6PtC
17:57:19 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:57:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Advance warning - Daylight savings time changes starts soon. Meeting on March 17 may be a different time for you.
17:57:25 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC - any more thoughs? Any information anyone needs which would help make a decision if you would attend in-person vs remote?
17:57:28 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Special Teleconference - LE updates https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Mar/0003.html
17:57:31 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Dedication section for Carolyn https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Feb/0036.html
17:57:34 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683
17:57:37 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661  - someone needs to take this PR over
17:57:41 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100
17:57:44 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353  - also  -> https://github.com/WICG/app-history/issues/202 https://github.com/WICG/app-history/issues/202
17:57:48 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Initial aria-textseparation https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
17:59:28 <jamesn> regrets CurtBellew
17:59:29 <Laurence_Lewis> Laurence_Lewis has joined #aria
17:59:39 <jamesn> regrets+ BryanGaraventa
17:59:49 <jamesn> regrets+ JoanmarieDiggs
17:59:53 <chlane> scribe:clane
18:00:07 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
18:01:27 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:02:19 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
18:02:48 <spectranaut> present+ valerie_young
18:03:17 <Irfan_> Irfan_ has joined #aria
18:03:20 <Irfan_> present+
18:03:51 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
18:03:55 <pkra> present+
18:04:02 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:04:22 <chlane> melsumner: has a suggestion for the group
18:04:22 <melsumner> present+
18:04:32 <chlane> scribe: chlane
18:04:44 <myasonik> present+
18:04:46 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:04:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3trv67o -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:41 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
18:05:41 <chlane> #1697 can't wait until 1.4
18:05:54 <harris> harris has joined #aria
18:05:56 <chlane> scotto will work with matt
18:06:01 <harris> present+
18:06:10 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:06:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3Mg6PtC -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:25 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:06:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, chlane
18:06:36 <chlane> zakim, close this item
18:06:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
18:06:37 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:06:37 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:06:56 <chlane> scotto some prs are waiting
18:07:17 <chlane> ping editors
18:07:29 <chlane> should not need a agenda topic
18:07:33 <chlane> reminder to reviews
18:08:08 <pkra> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pulls
18:08:17 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:08:20 <scotto> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pulls
18:08:23 <chlane> need list shared, or check repo
18:08:29 <scotto> present+
18:08:31 <melsumner> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+user-review-requested%3A%40me
18:09:27 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:09:30 <chlane> review/reviewer syntax? see mels link
18:09:36 <StefanS> present+
18:09:51 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:09:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:51 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
18:10:06 <chlane> no deep dive next week
18:10:17 <chlane> is it useful for the agenda
18:10:30 <chlane> schedule ad hocs if needed?
18:10:44 <chlane> melsumner: would like to do deep dive on
18:10:50 <melsumner> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353 in two weeks
18:11:11 <chlane> should aria provide better support for routing in spas
18:11:25 <chlane> jamesn: will schedule
18:11:27 <jamesn> agenda?
18:11:51 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 11
18:11:51 <Zakim> agendum 11, -> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353  - also  ->
18:11:53 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/WICG/app-history/issues/202 https://github.com/WICG/app-history/issues/202, dropped
18:11:58 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:11:58 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Advance warning - Daylight savings time changes starts soon. Meeting on March 17 may be a different time for you. -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:18 <chlane> US moves forward
18:12:34 <chlane> StefanS: secondary actions deepdive suggested
18:13:12 <chlane> sarah has been working on it just got back to vacation
18:13:52 <chlane> week after next may be diff time
18:14:07 <chlane> europe may be diff time
18:14:46 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- TPAC - any more thoughs? Any information anyone needs which would help make a decision if you would attend in-person vs remote? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:55 <chlane> contact jamesn if you need info for personal reasons like has the conf center improved ventilation?
18:17:13 <chlane> any questions to change decision aske jamesn now
18:18:06 <Laurence_Lewis> My company is not funding overseas travel this year, so would like to attend remotely.
18:18:08 <chlane> video conferencing will be good
18:18:17 <chlane> so you can see the folks in the room
18:18:32 <chlane> also better microphones
18:18:40 <chlane> not passing mics around
18:18:51 <chlane> better room size choicrs
18:19:03 <chlane> improved virtual attendance experience
18:19:12 <chlane> more breaks/social
18:19:22 <chlane> to improve virtual expereince
18:19:35 <chlane> people want to see each other in person
18:19:52 <chlane> survey will go out
18:20:33 <melsumner> I'm excited to plan to attend
18:20:33 <chlane> hotel is downtown fun
18:21:16 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:21:25 <chlane> matt likes
18:21:31 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:21:31 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Special Teleconference - LE updates https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Mar/0003.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:22:16 <chlane> next Wed west coast 7am boston, Leoni taking about wC3 transition to a legal entity
18:22:24 <chlane> can attend if you want to
18:22:39 <chlane> big deal
18:22:46 <chlane> move to updated model
18:22:58 <chlane> MichaelC: 4 universities
18:23:08 <MarkMcCarthy> s/wC3 transition/W3C transition
18:23:28 <chlane> affects MichaelC mainly
18:23:55 <chlane> matt any implications for wgs?
18:24:13 <chlane> MichaelC: hard to tell, MIT is saying put your money where your mouth is
18:24:49 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:24:49 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Dedication section for Carolyn https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Feb/0036.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:25:34 <chlane> dedication for Carolyn in 1.2
18:25:46 <MarkMcCarthy> Janina's proposed text: This version of the ARIA specification is dedicated to the memory of  Carolyn MacLeod whose contributions our Working Group sees throughout the document. She graced our work with equanimity and sagacity, and her untimely passing will long be missed by our community.
18:25:46 <melsumner> +100
18:25:53 <chlane> jamesn: presuming it can go forward with text from Janina
18:25:56 <pkra> +100
18:26:01 <MarkMcCarthy> 💯
18:26:08 <chlane> +100
18:27:26 <spectranaut> +100
18:32:06 <chlane> keep on going
18:32:37 <chlane> jamesn: we will need to go through her PRs you are welcome
18:32:54 <spectranaut> thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts, though I didn't know her, I can feel her inspiration and effect <3
18:33:05 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:33:05 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:33:45 <chlane> 1683 scotto say we have a PR
18:35:14 <chlane> MichaelC: invite chlane@vmware.com to group thanks
18:35:51 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:35:51 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661  - someone needs to take this PR
18:35:54 <Zakim> ... over -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:36:33 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682
18:37:29 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:37:29 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:38:38 <chlane> assigned to scotto
18:38:58 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:38:58 <Zakim> agendum 12 -- -> Initial aria-textseparation https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:40:04 <chlane> matt wants to work on it, did early work on proposal
18:40:56 <chlane> matt, big lift for user agents jamesn punt to 1.4
18:41:24 <chlane> scotto: related to punting on inline generic vs block generic
18:41:49 <chlane> UA/AT understanding block or inline and adjusting announcement
18:42:01 <chlane> scotto: clarify in core AAM
18:42:12 <chlane> jamesn: not an element thing
18:42:22 <chlane> scotto: need css AAM
18:42:40 <chlane> matt we sort of started
18:42:52 <chlane> Ian was going to work on it but a big can of worms
18:43:09 <chlane> historically onlys some screen readers consider CSS
18:43:18 <chlane> a lot of things will break
18:43:31 <chlane> if we dont think at the element level
18:43:39 <chlane> link w/ mult divs
18:43:47 <chlane> regardlees of styling
18:43:55 <chlane> seperated in virtual buffer
18:44:01 <chlane> if lumped together
18:44:29 <chlane> in those cases I'm not sure how link names are processed
18:44:36 <chlane> jamesn: do you have test pages?
18:44:50 <chlane> scotto: more nuanced
18:45:13 <chlane> navigating by link may hear a single string rather than indivual links
18:45:31 <chlane> matt, words munched together
18:45:40 <chlane> works like a feature in a lot of places
18:46:19 <chlane> this is where text separation allows authors to control AT experience intentionally and not match the visual experience
18:47:14 <jamesn> agenda?
18:48:20 <jamesn> topic: links vs buttons
18:48:21 <chlane> melsumner: exploration everlasting links vs buttons
18:48:36 <chlane> gaps, use of CTA's
18:48:51 <chlane> need to visually be prominent but usually go to a URL
18:48:56 <chlane> boring discussion
18:49:14 <chlane> can we ask browesers and ATs to treat them the same
18:49:22 <chlane> matt, links are very different
18:49:41 <chlane> becauser they have an href with context menu
18:50:04 <chlane> things presented as links without those features
18:50:18 <jcraig> q+
18:50:33 <jcraig> q+ stefan
18:50:36 <chlane> jamesn: all be buttons
18:50:37 <jcraig> q late jcr
18:50:54 <jcraig> ack s
18:51:02 <jamesn> q+
18:51:13 <chlane> StefanS: links for nav, buttons can do actions and nav
18:51:20 <chlane> just becuase it is possible
18:51:34 <siri_> example is Add to cart
18:51:46 <jamesn> ack jcraig
18:51:55 <chlane> like climbing mountains, scotto
18:52:07 <chlane> devs will do a variety of thinks
18:52:51 <chlane> boring, but agree with comments from stefan and matt that there are perceptual differences for sighted users
18:53:21 <chlane> melsumner: links that looks like buttons
18:53:38 <siri_> +1 James
18:53:47 <chlane> scotto: could be a net loss
18:54:09 <chlane> melsumner: can make it do the correct thing underneath
18:54:18 <chlane> what about the keyboard only user?
18:54:35 <chlane> that button that is really a link won't work with spacebar
18:54:42 <chlane> how do we do this?
18:54:48 <chlane> jcraig:
18:55:14 <chlane> framework dev is doing the right thing and automatically add the spacebar suppor
18:55:17 <chlane> t
18:55:28 <chlane> make is as easy on the user and dev as possible
18:55:43 <chlane> both from the AT and Framework
18:56:09 <chlane> user > author > implementert
18:56:16 <cyns> q+
18:56:36 <siri_> "Shop now" looks like a button but it is a link.
18:56:41 <chlane> melsumner: if i told my team, its ok to address spacebar support to link
18:57:05 <chlane> jcraig: spacebar for all links
18:57:21 <chlane> jcraig: links and buttons a lot of middle cases
18:57:34 <chlane> go with visual look
18:57:44 <chlane> link pops up a dialog
18:57:58 <chlane> is that a link or button?
18:58:04 <jcraig> s/spacebar for all links/"spacebar for all links" would also be a reasonable choice for a framework developer to make as a default on behalf od app devs/
18:58:07 <chlane> buttons that navigate
18:58:15 <jcraig> s/od/of/
18:58:33 <melsumner> for clarity, we aren't struggling with url (links) vs buttons (actions)- it's more that I think it could be useful to have links and buttons both respond to SPACEBAR and ENTER (that would be the very narrow scope)
18:58:34 <jcraig> q+ to go off the rails
18:58:52 <chlane> cyns: wonder if links responding to spacebar is a good idea?
18:59:24 <chlane> melsumner: would like links and buttons to respond to spacebar and enter
18:59:25 <jcraig> q-
18:59:28 <jamesn> ack me
18:59:31 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:59:49 <chlane> jcraig: leading in that topic
19:00:03 <chlane> proposed something similar to ios traits
19:00:12 <chlane> no path in aria
19:00:21 <chlane>  rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-aria-minutes.html chlane
19:01:11 <jcraig> s/ ios traits/ iOS traits; something can be both a link and a button/
19:02:11 <chlane>  rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-aria-minutes.html chlane
20:20:31 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria