15:02:46 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 15:02:46 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-irc 15:02:48 present+ 15:02:53 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF 15:03:18 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Addison_Phillips, Jan_Romann, Klaus_Hartke 15:03:24 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 15:03:31 regrets+ Sebastian 15:04:21 present+ Daniel_Peintner 15:04:38 present+ Ege_Korkan 15:04:40 chair: Ege 15:04:49 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1416 15:04:56 dape has joined #wot-td 15:04:59 i/1416/topic: I18N review 15:05:36 present+ Michael_McCool 15:05:56 ek: would clarification about this issue 15:06:24 ap: if there is direction metadata, you should use it 15:06:46 ... it's complicated 15:07:01 ek: do you mean this part is complicated? 15:07:21 [[ 15:07:22 The computation of the base direction of all human-readable text strings is defined by the following set of rules: 15:07:22 If no language tag is given, the base direction SHOULD be inferred through first-strong heuristics or detection algorithms such as the CLDR Likely Subtags [LDML]. 15:07:22 Outside of MultiLanguage Maps, the base direction MAY be inferred from the language tag of the default language. 15:07:23 Inside of MultiLanguage Maps, the base direction of each value of the name-value pairs MAY be inferred from the language tag given in the corresponding name. 15:07:25 McCool has joined #wot-td 15:07:26 In cases where a language can be written in more than one script with different base directions, the corresponding language tag given in @language or MultiLanguage Maps MUST include a script subtag, so that an appropriate base direction can be inferred. An example is Azeri, which is written LTR when Latin script is used (specified using az-Latn) and RTL when Arabic script is used (specified using az-Arab). 15:07:27 q+ 15:07:28 q? 15:07:31 ]] 15:07:33 ap: yes 15:07:39 ack m 15:07:45 mm: regarding the metadata 15:07:53 ... JSON-LD guys make the standard 15:08:06 ... so we followed that precedent 15:08:17 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1414 15:08:33 https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#base-direction 15:09:21 mm: we fetch the context for TD fragments as well 15:09:44 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:10:44 ek: should we scrap the complicated algorithm part? 15:10:58 mm: should not simply scrap it due to backward compatibility 15:11:28 ap: still think the last bullet is problematic 15:11:44 [[ 15:11:45 In cases where a language can be written in more than one script with different base directions, the corresponding language tag given in @language or MultiLanguage Maps MUST include a script subtag, so that an appropriate base direction can be inferred. An example is Azeri, which is written LTR when Latin script is used (specified using az-Latn) and RTL when Arabic script is used (specified using az-Arab). 15:11:46 ]] 15:11:59 ap: but if you could improve it for TD ver. 2.0, that's OK 15:13:24 kaz: can we live with the current text for ver. 1.1? 15:13:36 mm: no. need to add a new assertion 15:13:56 ... suggest we draft a proposed assertion for it 15:14:12 ap: you can draft a proposal and put that into this issue 1416 15:14:15 kaz: tx 15:14:20 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1411 15:14:37 i/1411/subtopic: Issue 1411/ 15:14:54 ap: it's editorial 15:16:57 ... would be better to show the value as non-display code 15:17:05 ... e.g., ON and OFF 15:17:07 ek: ok 15:17:19 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1414 15:17:43 ek: any disadvantage about this 15:17:56 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1412 15:18:30 i/1412/ap: ok/ 15:19:12 i/1412/... you'd be needing an additional option/ 15:19:40 q+ 15:20:06 ek: possibly different PDFs based on languages 15:20:07 cris_ has joined #wot-td 15:20:42 ap: some documents have one-on-one language 15:20:55 ... English, French, German, etc. 15:21:15 mm: would follow the standard 15:21:40 ap: HTML has an attribute to specify language, though 15:22:32 ek: (adds a comment to the issue) 15:22:49 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1415 15:23:17 q+ 15:23:44 ap: would encourage content authors to use valid language tag 15:24:19 ... recommend you go through your document carefully 15:24:34 ... and link to our term "well-formed language tag" in the I18N Glosary 15:25:44 mm: map this to our basic and full validation, where basic is well-formed and full is valid tags 15:26:09 ek: TDs SHOULD provide vlid tags but consumers are not required to check against IANA registry (well formed is ok) 15:26:10 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1410 15:26:45 ap: JSON files use UTF-8 15:27:02 ... when comes to directory naming, we did some work on EPUB 15:27:40 ... everything you do should be UTF-8 15:28:21 ... you probably mean more like URI spec 15:28:36 ... when you use link for somewhere 15:28:45 ... maybe have a closer look 15:29:02 ek: not exactly clear 15:29:18 ap: might need further discussion 15:29:35 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1413 15:29:46 ek: I'm also confused with this 15:29:47 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1413 15:30:39 ap: you don't provide features allow a Thing to indicte what languages are available for language-negotiation, etc. 15:30:50 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1413|| 15:31:21 ... all the devices can use language-negotiation? 15:31:24 btw https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-09.html#rfc.section.8.1 JSON default encoding is UTF-8 but the rfc does not strictly forbid other UTF encondings 15:31:53 ek: sort of understood 15:32:12 ... for that purpose, we need new feature? 15:32:20 RFC4987 15:32:32 ap: you could use language range 15:32:41 ... not sure what would make sense, though 15:32:50 ... this is more a feature request 15:32:55 ... need to leave 15:33:17 ... if you need further help, could continue the discussion on GitHub or another call 15:33:20 ek: tx 15:33:30 ... we'll create PRs 15:33:34 ap: cool 15:33:42 rrsagent, make log public 15:33:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:33:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:34:16 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1410 15:34:21 ek: (adds comment) 15:34:48 [[ 15:34:48 We should discuss whether it is OK to have spaces instead of URL encoding (ege guesses that they should be URL encoded) 15:34:49 ]] 15:34:55 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1413 15:35:17 ek: (adds comment) 15:35:17 [[ 15:36:22 This is more like a feature request but a TD can describe the supported locales as individual keys or language ranges (there is an RFC for that). 15:36:22 Another option would be to additionally list locales for a given language (with a new keyword?) 15:36:23 ]] 15:36:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:36:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:36:59 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1411 15:37:02 ek: (adds comment) 15:37:04 [[ 15:37:25 Call of 02.03: This is simply about having more obviously code-related names for "On", like "ON" 15:37:26 ]] 15:37:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:37:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:38:07 mjk has joined #wot-td 15:38:18 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1416|subtopic: Issue 1416| 15:38:38 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1414|subtopic: Issue 1414| 15:38:58 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1412|subtopic: Issue 1412| 15:39:07 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1415|subtopic: Issue 1415| 15:39:28 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1410|subtopic: Issue 1410| 15:39:32 topic: issues 15:39:35 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1413|subtopic: Issue 1413| 15:39:41 subtopic: Issue 1409 15:39:50 scribenick: cris_ 15:39:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:39:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:39:58 ege: there is no reference to the TM schema in the spec 15:40:17 q+ 15:40:21 i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1411|subtopic: Issue 1411| 15:40:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:40:24 ... I plan to add that before section 11.2 or at the bottom of section 11 15:40:33 ... just the link not the actual schema 15:40:37 ack dape 15:40:47 dape: ok to put just the link 15:41:00 ege: yeah I don't like having a long schema file 15:41:05 q+ 15:41:21 ack McCool 15:41:21 ack m 15:42:05 i|there is no|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1409 Issue 1409 - No reference to Thing Model Schema for Validation| 15:42:43 cris: why don't we just link when we describe what is a TM? 15:42:52 ege: yeah right, I found the perfect place 15:43:03 present+ Michael_Koster 15:43:08 ack c 15:43:22 i/would clarification about this/scribenick: kaz/ 15:43:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:44:00 q+ to approving minutes? 15:44:06 i|we fetch the context for TD fragments as well|subtopic: Issue 1414| 15:44:18 jan: may I ask to add two item in the agenda? issue 1407 and PR 1419 15:44:32 i|ap: JSON files use UTF-8|subtopic: Issue 1410| 15:44:35 q? 15:44:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:44:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:45:15 i|ek: I'm also confused with this|subtopic: 1413| 15:45:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:45:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:45:31 q? 15:45:32 ege: I had an internal discussion about 1419 but we think is not really an elagant solution 15:45:39 mc 15:45:40 qq+ McCool 15:45:47 s/mc// 15:45:53 q- M 15:46:02 mc: we should fix it in TD 2.0 15:46:16 s/subtopic: 1413/subtopic: Issue 1413/ 15:46:18 ... we are choosing this solution just to not break backward compatibility 15:46:25 q? 15:46:44 ack dape 15:46:44 dape, you wanted to approving minutes? 15:46:46 dape: another agenda item: minutes approval 15:46:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:46:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:48:17 s/subtopic: Issue 1411/subtopic: Issue 1411 (revisited)/ 15:48:20 s/subtopic: Issue 1413/subtopic: Issue 1413 (revisited)/ 15:48:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:48:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:50:05 ege: pr has minor issues but I'll keep it open for further reviews 15:51:33 jan: can we indicate that the feature is still a draft 15:51:42 ... or a workaround 15:51:53 i|pr has|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1419 PR 1419 - Add auto value for the in field of SecuritySchemes| 15:51:54 mc: it is not a real workaround 15:52:30 topic: previous minutes 15:53:05 -> https://www.w3.org/2022/02/23-wot-td-minutes.html Feb-23 15:53:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:54:48 ege: as usual we discussed different issues from TD and in binding template we welcomed a new contribution about bacnet binding 15:55:20 i/may I ask to add/PR 1419 link here@@@/ 15:55:45 i/PR 1419 link here@@@/topic: PR 1419/ 15:56:04 s/subtopic: Issue 1409// 15:56:19 s/topic: issues/topic: Issue 1409/ 15:56:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:56:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:56:49 ege: any objections? 15:56:54 ege: ok minutes approved 15:57:14 topic: Issues 15:58:29 ege: some of the issues are easy and they are in the agenda just to close them 15:58:38 subtopic: issue 1404 15:58:46 q+ 15:59:00 ege: shortly observeproperties are under specified 15:59:17 ... imho it is and edge use case 15:59:25 ... if needed people can create an event 15:59:49 mc: observe is closely related to properties 16:00:00 i|shortly|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1404 Issue 1404 - ObservableProperties: unspecified operations, missing vocabulary terms| 16:00:11 ... I agree that it is not a bug but a feature... we should keep this simple 16:01:07 mc: is this a 2.0 discussion? it might take time to implement this 16:01:16 q+ 16:01:31 ack m 16:02:27 cris: I agree 16:02:33 ack c 16:03:58 subtopic: Issue XXX 16:04:13 ege: we introduce query and cancel action operation 16:04:31 ... in profile we are using the operations 16:04:40 s/XXX/1408/ 16:04:45 s/XXX/1408/ 16:04:52 ... we need more examples 16:04:53 s/Issue XXX/Issue 1408 16:05:03 i|we intro|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1408 Issue 1408 - Actions with cancel and query operations, the meaning of input and output, dynamic href| 16:05:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:05:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:05:11 ... we don't support dynamic ids 16:06:33 ... the issue is about actions that can be managed with operations 16:06:47 ... the output value should be fetch later on 16:06:54 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1408#issue-1155566799 describing the example withing the comment 23 hours ago 16:07:39 ... when we invoke something with input we get an output but it is explained how this is related to the new operations 16:07:56 ... it is really underspecified 16:08:37 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#actionaffordance referring to section 5.3.1.4 ActionAffordance 16:09:41 ... we must state that output is related to invokeaction and the output of queryaction is different 16:09:43 q? 16:10:16 cris: I agree that invokeaction and output must be connected 16:10:32 ... we could add even a new field just for queryaction 16:10:35 ege: right 16:11:23 dape: how can we use one model or another? 16:11:35 koster: a state machine description might help 16:11:51 q+ 16:12:02 q+ 16:12:25 q+ 16:12:27 ack k 16:12:28 kaz: I agree, but we can defer this topic for the 2.0 16:12:39 ege: I would like to postpone too 16:12:49 ... but the keyword are there 16:13:11 s/but/and/ 16:13:43 ... with the state machine we can clarify if you can query before invoking and what happens in different cases 16:15:15 cris: I agree that it was a bit pre matured to introduce this new keywords 16:15:28 ... is there any implementation beside webthings? 16:16:55 q+ 16:16:58 ege: profile supports dynamic action instances 16:17:26 ack m 16:17:52 q+ 16:17:52 ack c 16:17:57 ack c 16:18:15 cris: ok I think profile spec is not really an implementation 16:18:36 mc: right, we need to implement profile and understand if it is doable 16:18:40 q+ 16:18:46 -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-profile/#async-action-response WoT Profile - 6.3.2.1.3 Asynchronous Action Response 16:18:49 q+ 16:19:03 s/ok I/ok. I/ 16:19:04 ... webthing may be an implementation 16:19:20 ege: but they will use out of band information 16:19:34 ... is this really a valid implementation? 16:19:53 mc: right, they need to align 16:20:29 ... plus I agree with the point above that we should just allow one mode and not mix the twos 16:20:45 ... moreover profile should just restrict TD features 16:20:52 ege: right now we can't support this 16:21:02 ... we don't have time 16:21:15 s/out of band/out-of-band/ 16:21:21 ... the problem with TD is that every operation is atomic 16:21:25 q? 16:21:34 ... here we have relations between operations 16:21:47 mc: maybe profile can specify orders between operations 16:21:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:21:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:22:33 dape: from the scripting api point of view, it is still difficult because the runtime can't know what to do 16:22:51 ... just simply from watching the TD 16:23:02 mc: I guess we agree that the spec is under specified 16:23:06 ack dape 16:23:12 ack McCool 16:23:14 ack m 16:23:17 ack m 16:23:17 ack c 16:24:20 cris: I think we could still support the trivial use case 16:24:28 ... no dynamic ids 16:24:40 dape: yeah but we are not compliant with profiles 16:25:09 ege: well the application can implement the profile logic 16:26:25 kaz: I tend to agree to what as been said, technically profile should just define a subset of TD features. TD itself does not really support dynamic IDs 16:26:36 ... this is already wrong 16:26:52 ... editors should keep an eye on this kind of consistency problems 16:27:05 ... we should start from TD 16:27:55 s/of TD features/of TD features for "out of box interoperability"/ 16:27:56 ege: yeah they were added for profiles, but we can re-start the process now 16:28:25 ... there are other implications but I skip them for now 16:28:27 s/for profiles/to Profile first/ 16:28:59 subtopic: issue 1276 16:29:08 ege: this issue has the propose closing label 16:29:14 ... we already solved 16:29:16 ... with a pr 16:29:38 ... I'm closing this, any objections? 16:29:49 ... closed 16:30:09 subtopic: Issue 942 16:30:26 ege: same, as above any, objections? 16:30:42 i|this iss|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1276 Issue 1276 - New TD 1.1 namespace IRI| 16:30:56 s/same, as above any, objections/same as above, any objections?( 16:31:10 ... closed 16:31:24 subtopic: Issue 1139 16:31:33 ege: same, as above any, objections? 16:31:36 ... closed 16:31:47 subtopic: Issue 1202 16:31:59 ege: not really closed, but PR adds a note 16:33:40 ... there still minor issues but we can solve them later 16:33:43 i|same, |-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/942 Issue 942 - Example 35 is incorrect or has inconsistency| 16:33:44 ... closed 16:34:11 s/ ege:/ege:/ 16:34:22 subtopic: Issue 956 16:35:07 ege: long standing issue, ajv not really support iri-reference 16:35:19 s/i|same,|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1139 Issue 1139 - Creating subsections for readability| 16:35:22 ... I would remove format 16:35:30 ... for playground we implement validation 16:35:52 i|not really|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1202 Issue 1202 - unit for human-redable / display purposes or as semantic annotation?| 16:36:20 ... there still some bit of validation happining 16:36:23 q+ 16:36:25 q+ 16:36:28 i|long standing|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/956 Issue 956 - JSON Schema validation issue wr.t. "format": "iri-reference"| 16:36:30 ack k 16:36:47 rrsagent, make log public 16:36:51 dape: I would prefer to remove it 16:36:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:36:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:37:00 ... it causes to many issues 16:37:06 s/to/too/ 16:37:09 ... easy fix 16:37:23 ack dape 16:37:45 cris: it seems that ajv now supports it? 16:37:48 ege: not really 16:39:16 cris: I see not a big deal to remove the validation then 16:39:37 topic: binding template 16:39:43 ege: we a few PRs 16:39:53 subtopic: PR 151 16:40:06 s/we a/we have a/ 16:40:06 ege: I did a review 16:40:13 ... there are small typos 16:40:16 s/template/templates/ 16:40:21 ... it adds an abstract 16:40:26 https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/151 16:41:18 i|I did a|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/151 wot-binding-templates PR 151 - Improve MODBUS document| 16:41:28 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/151|| 16:41:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:41:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:44:20 cris: can you check the default values? I am not sure they are 100% correct 16:44:27 ege: I will ask around 16:44:38 subtopic: PR 150 16:45:23 ege: I like that this pr force people to run render before sending a PR 16:45:33 +1 16:46:59 ege: ok I'll merge this cause it seems a valuable additions 16:47:43 subtopic: PR 149 16:47:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:47:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:48:01 ege: there's a long discussion on the PR 16:48:07 ... jan gave a feedback 16:48:31 ... the main concern that I have is that the changes were on the index.html but not in the template 16:48:59 jan: I facilitate the discussion some aspects can be moved in an issue 16:49:08 ... some aspects are more generic 16:49:43 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/149 wot-binding-templates PR 149 - CoAP Binding based on features| 16:50:03 (I am going to have to drop to prep for another meeting; ttyl) 16:50:10 s#->https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/149 wot-binding-templates PR 149 - CoAP Binding based on features## 16:50:24 i|there's a|->https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/149 wot-binding-templates PR 149 - CoAP Binding based on features| 16:50:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:50:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:50:33 ege: moving the discussion to issues might be problematic because the PR will evolve 16:52:08 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1407 16:52:19 topic: TD issues 16:52:32 subtopic: Issue 1407 16:53:01 jan: I worked on a converted for TD and SDF 16:53:12 ... SDF support nested items 16:53:25 ... when you translate that to a TD 16:53:40 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1407|| 16:54:16 ... you need always to write them on the system to keep the structure consistent with links 16:54:19 i|I worked on|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1407 wot-thing-description Issue 1407 - Alternative composition mechanism for Thing Models| 16:54:32 s/TD issues/TD issues (revisited)/ 16:54:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:54:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/02-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:54:42 ... a solution might be a filed where you can nest other tms 16:54:59 ... when create TDs you can resolve this models 16:55:11 q+ 16:55:33 ege: follow the links limit the visibility 16:56:01 ... I like the approach 16:56:19 ... converting from DITTO to TMs might be another use case 16:56:35 ... Imho we can go with your solution 16:57:19 q+ 16:57:23 ... but you might have maintance problems 16:57:46 jan: yeah 16:57:59