13:32:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:32:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/25-eo-irc
13:32:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:32:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
13:32:37 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:32:37 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
13:32:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference
13:32:38 <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2022
13:32:54 <shawn> present+
13:32:57 <krisannekinney> present+
13:32:59 <Sharron> present+
13:33:01 <Laura> present+
13:33:26 <MarkPalmer> MarkPalmer has joined #eo
13:33:28 <MarkPalmer> ent+
13:33:35 <MarkPalmer> present+
13:33:50 <Sharron> Chair: Scribe
13:34:01 <Sharron> Chair: Brent
13:34:04 <Jade> present+
13:34:12 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
13:34:53 <krisannekinney> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Agenda
13:35:09 <kevin> present+
13:35:28 <Michele> Michele has joined #eo
13:35:33 <Michele> present+
13:35:53 <Vicki_> Vicki_ has joined #eo
13:37:26 <Howard> Howard has joined #eo
13:37:40 <Howard> present+ Howard
13:39:01 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
13:39:23 <Sharron> Topic: Supplemental Guidance Redesign
13:41:33 <krisannekinney> regrets: Brian
13:41:58 <krisannekinney> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:41:58 <Zakim> Present: shawn, krisannekinney, Sharron, Laura, MarkPalmer, Jade, kevin, Michele, Howard, Daniel
13:42:12 <krisannekinney> present+ stevelee
13:42:30 <Laura> q+
13:42:40 <kevin> q+
13:43:11 <Sharron> Shawn: Reminder that we spoke before the presentation of the links were not clear enough, have addressed that with underlining. Background information - there is a link to WCAG2, etc - these about links are meant to guide someone who may have landed here from a Search engine etc. And we want to keep this background info together. Has been suggested to use 'Background' or 'Related Information' or
13:43:11 <Sharron> something else more useful for a newbie.
13:43:15 <Howard> q+
13:43:21 <krisannekinney> ack lau
13:44:11 <Sharron> Laura: I don't have strong feelings about the wording but I do have strong feelings about so much text in the header. Honestly, even the italicized bits should maybe not even be there at all.
13:44:36 <Sharron> Shawn" We found that it was vital that people who come here know that this si not required...
13:44:59 <Sharron> Laura: It will be missed up there, should be called out in another was - maybe under the navigation.
13:45:06 <Michele> q+
13:45:10 <Sharron> s/was/way
13:45:18 <krisannekinney> ack kev
13:46:32 <Sharron> Kevin: 'About' is the word to use - the other options are slightly off kilter. It is not background information and it's not really related information. I feel quite strongly that is the right word.
13:46:38 <krisannekinney> ack how
13:47:14 <Sharron> Howard: It is quite confusing to read that it is not required but still makes things 'more' accessible.
13:47:38 <Sharron> Shawn: How about the link beneath that expl;ains why they are nto required
13:47:52 <krisannekinney> ack mi
13:47:54 <Sharron> Howard: It soes not seem clear that is what will be in the link.
13:48:29 <Sharron> Michele: It feels like this page has 2 h1s and don't know what is most improtant. Is this the design for every page?
13:48:33 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes
13:48:54 <Sharron> Michele: And what does the first page say?
13:49:23 <Sharron> ...so is the idea to provide context wherever people drop in?
13:49:32 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes
13:49:50 <brent> brent has joined #eo
13:50:38 <Sharron> Michele: It's readable only when you read from top to bottom. I am not sure which is the actual h1. It is confusing as is now.
13:51:55 <Sharron> Shawn: If you land here you can get oriented byt the info at the top, if you use it a lot you will stop looking at it. Terms like 'banner blindness' or 'mask out' apply here and was considered in this design.
13:51:57 <krisannekinney> q?
13:52:02 <brent> present+
13:52:05 <dmontalvo> +1 to "About"
13:52:54 <Laura> q+
13:53:28 <krisannekinney> q+
13:53:32 <krisannekinney> ack lau
13:53:37 <Sharron> Shawn: If anyone has coding resources to help, we would appreciate those. Otherwise we are likely to go forward as is and hope you can live with it for Pahse 1. If anyone has really strong objections, now is the time.
13:54:16 <Sharron> Laura: I have no objections to continuing to go forward but would pay close attention to how people respond and use it.
13:54:57 <Sharron> Shawn: We have been doing some informal user data gathering and this is patterned on the main WAI page.
13:56:02 <kevin> q+
13:56:10 <Sharron> Kris Anne: There is a lot of space that makes it even more confusing - it looks more disjointed. I also prefer calling it about.
13:56:15 <krisannekinney> ack kr
13:56:37 <krisannekinney> ack kev
13:56:44 <Howard> q+
13:56:53 <Sharron> Kevin: You mentioned if we could have anyone to look at it. Are there links to other options?
13:56:58 <Sharron> Shawn: No
13:57:21 <Sharron> ...we have not saved our previous iternations.
13:57:41 <Sharron> Kevin: Send me the links and I will ask a couple of interaction designers for input.
13:57:56 <krisannekinney> ack ho
13:58:38 <Sharron> Howard: Another thisng I recall there was previous pattern and next pattern and 'pattern' seems like a confusing word and not consistent with how we usually reference the guidance.
13:58:48 <Laura_> Laura_ has joined #eo
13:59:16 <Sharron> Shawn: It was added as a set by COGA
13:59:26 <Sharron> Howard: I still think it is confusing
13:59:44 <Sharron> Shawn: We can't change content from COGA
14:00:25 <Sharron> s/thisng/thing
14:00:35 <stevelee> q+
14:00:47 <Sharron> Shawn: While we can't change it maybe we could better explain it.
14:01:38 <krisannekinney> ack steve
14:02:43 <Sharron> Steve: After a lot of discussion with the AG we have settled on these terms with their constraints about what is acceptable and not.
14:03:46 <Sharron> Shawn: Thanks for the input. We really want to get out Phase 1 and assume refinements will come.
14:03:57 <Sharron> Topic: Outreach - what WAI is working on
14:05:19 <Sharron> Shawn: For a long time, we have wanted to do this. Many people including many in this group do not have a clear idea of exactly what WAI is working on. So for both internal and external reasons, this is improtant. Business developmnt (recruiting) for W3C membership will be at CSUN in March.
14:05:26 <shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-about-wai/wiki/What-WAI-is-Working-On-Requirements-Analysis
14:05:28 <Sharron> ...Please take a look at requirements
14:05:53 <Sharron> ...welcome your input
14:06:41 <Sharron> Kris Anne: So this is meant to be a page within the W3C site?
14:06:57 <Sharron> Shawn: I am thinking it would be front and center on the WAI site
14:07:13 <Vicki2> Vicki2 has joined #eo
14:07:14 <Sharron> ...we may want to promote it as News on the W3C site
14:07:56 <Sharron> KrisAnne: If people go to w3.org it looks like no one is doing anything and looks quite outdated. I don't even know how to get to WAI from their.
14:08:30 <Sharron> Shawn: They ahve been working on a MAJOR redesign and it is sadly behind schedule
14:09:05 <Sharron> KrisAnne: It is a great idea but want to think about where it goes to be effective.
14:09:10 <shawn> q?
14:09:28 <Sharron> Shawn: CSUN is in two weeks so let's get it done and then think aobut promoting it.
14:11:41 <krisannekinney> +1 for needs based work
14:11:48 <Sharron> Kevin: Thinking aobut the user scenarios...the core scenarios are - what's the road map and what can I get involved with. Not sure about the research. Another thing is that when you list all the TFs, it is really dense and boring. But if you focus on the actual work and the need that is being addressed it becomes more compelling and engaging.
14:14:29 <Sharron> Shawn: I agree. On your first point an issue is that people start to do work that is already in process here. Another point is to not rely on acronyms on the first page but do we still want to include them so that people know what they are when they are encountered?
14:15:28 <Sharron> Kevin: Nah, they will get to acronyms eventually and the focus on WHAT is the work being done rather than the acronyzed WG amd TFs
14:15:56 <krisannekinney> q?
14:16:27 <Sharron> Shawn: What about document acronyms?
14:16:41 <Sharron> Kevin: No even that can be off
14:17:28 <Sharron> Shawn: Would like to group things so we don't have a long laundry list and consider how much detail to put in there. Look forward to your input on those questions.
14:17:45 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Current_Projects
14:18:47 <shawn> q?
14:19:28 <Sharron> Shawn: For example, here is current and upcoming work just for EO. We would not include all that but the challenge is what to list, what not to, how to keep it organziaed, making it compelling and understandable.
14:19:49 <Sharron> Sharron: And engaging so they want to join if it is for recruiting
14:20:19 <Laura_> I have to drop for another meeting. Sorry for the late notice. It just popped up on my calendar.
14:20:31 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes so look at the participation page, and see if we can improve it. If anyone has the time, skill, and interest in making this more engaging that would be great.
14:21:01 <Sharron> Kevin: And presentation  must stay within WAI brand approach?
14:21:11 <Sharron> Shawn: It does...
14:22:55 <stevelee> https://deploy-preview-15--wai-aria-practices2.netlify.app/patterns/
14:23:07 <stevelee> https://deploy-preview-15--wai-aria-practices2.netlify.app/index/index.html
14:23:21 <stevelee> https://deploy-preview-15--wai-aria-practices2.netlify.app/fundamentals/
14:24:38 <shawn> https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/8
14:27:43 <Sharron> Shawn: So take a look at this and scroll down to see the image of the prototype. We will soon bring this to EO - it is a project to update the ARIA author's guide. They used the basic design pattern and made it more graphic and 'fancier.'
14:28:10 <Sharron> ...so we will have to balance between having cool visual design and remaining consistent with the WAI web site.
14:29:00 <shawn> q?
14:29:56 <shawn> Sharron: How far can we extend graphic design -- and still look like you're on teh WAI website
14:30:47 <Sharron> ...we have some like the Biz Case and Media Guide with iconography but not to this extent. We will consider this later on.
14:32:11 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/
14:32:16 <Sharron> Shawn: I will say that there are some things that I like about this but some that I am not sure about. It is something that we need to think about. Kevin's question was how limited are we and we are not completely limited by where we have been but also want to be midful of style consisitency.
14:33:40 <Sharron> ...would love for the Accessibility Fundamentals to have more of a workflow etc
14:33:54 <Sharron> Sharron: Look at Planning and Managing
14:34:15 <Sharron> Michele: And who will maintain the What WAI is doing page?
14:34:32 <Sharron> ...is it a requirement to make it easy to maintain?
14:35:55 <brent> q+
14:36:02 <Sharron> Shawn: Yes that is a requirement, the WGs themselves will be expected to maintain it. Most are comfortable with GitHub and during the WAI coordination every 2 weeks we can work on that as well. Expect to have a lightweight and successful updating process.
14:36:47 <Sharron> ...expect it would be a section here and there to change maybe once a month. Would people want to know what changes?
14:39:19 <Sharron> Michele: That goes back to who the audience is. Not sure we want to clutter the page with 'What's New' - either people already vested, working and keeping current or someone curious about how to help.
14:39:31 <Sharron> Scribe: KrisAnne
14:40:36 <krisannekinney> Kevin: some form of what's coming down the line is useful, but maybe not massive.  Keep it short.  Pulls out the new things.
14:42:13 <krisannekinney> Shawn: we need to figure out the level of detail.
14:43:45 <krisannekinney> Kevin:  How many are starting that are new and upcoming.
14:43:52 <shawn> q+ to comment on first scenario
14:43:58 <krisannekinney> Michele: why is that important to know?
14:44:08 <krisannekinney> Kevin: to keep people engaged.
14:44:38 <Jade> q+
14:44:40 <krisannekinney> Michele: what's on the list and are you just saying what's per year?
14:45:29 <krisannekinney> Brent: added a few comments on the requirements document on Github.
14:45:53 <krisannekinney> ... be a little more clear that its for all of WAI, not just EO so the scope is going to be bigger.
14:46:38 <krisannekinney> ... helpful to have guidance on the format of what each entries would be.
14:46:49 <krisannekinney> ...few brainstorm of names there too.
14:46:56 <shawn> q+ to comment on first scenario -- and scope: W3C accessibility
14:47:01 <shawn> ack brent
14:47:10 <shawn> ack Jade
14:48:00 <krisannekinney> Jade: why does it need to be a resource?  Can it be a news update?
14:49:30 <krisannekinney> Shawn: When we redid this in 2018, we thought to do more with the News, but its mostly draft publications.  Do we want to make updates as news updates?
14:49:53 <krisannekinney> Jade: maybe its easier to manage, rather than a page that people have to update and then if people stop updating its just out of date.
14:50:23 <krisannekinney> Michele: like the idea of a newsletter. can keep an archive of the newsletter.
14:50:53 <krisannekinney> ... like the idea of something more summarized.
14:52:21 <krisannekinney> Shawn: News items are pretty short on the home page.
14:53:53 <krisannekinney> Kevin: i can subscribe to the mailing list, so what's the homepage doing for me?  Not sure i would go to a WAI page to see what's going on with WAI.
14:54:13 <krisannekinney> Shawn: that's why we created that separate WAI announce email list - or from Twitter.
14:54:24 <shawn> q?
14:54:53 <krisannekinney> Brent: I think it would be better to have what we're working on there, rather than the News.
14:55:15 <krisannekinney> Shawn: Draft idea: Link would go ahead of the news, or maybe replace it.
14:55:40 <shawn> ack me
14:55:40 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on first scenario and to comment on first scenario -- and scope: W3C accessibility
14:55:48 <krisannekinney> ... i would like to see if we can create a separate page
14:56:10 <krisannekinney> ... first scenario is important from WAI's perspective.
14:57:03 <krisannekinney> Shawn: scope is accessibility at W3C
14:57:20 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/wai-about-wai/issues/127
14:57:23 <krisannekinney> Topic: Title brainstorm for What WAI is working on
14:57:51 <brent> Link to Title GitHub Issue: https://github.com/w3c/wai-about-wai/issues/127
14:58:55 <kevin> - Accessibility work at W3C
14:58:56 <kevin> - Get involved with accessibility at W3C
15:00:16 <krisannekinney> Shawn: please put brainstorms in Github
15:01:08 <Michele> Michele has joined #eo
15:01:15 <krisannekinney> Shawn: anything you want to follow up on?
15:01:46 <krisannekinney> Topic: W3C Legal Entity/Reorganization
15:03:28 <krisannekinney> Shawn: W3C is currently has 4 separate hosts in different parts of the world.
15:05:17 <krisannekinney> Shawn: W3C would like to become its own entity.
15:05:58 <krisannekinney> ...Meeting on March 9th with the advisory board to talk about some issues.
15:07:48 <krisannekinney> ... Issue that impacts EO, some people would like W3C just to focus on the standards.  and potentially not do things like Education and Outreach.
15:09:23 <brent> q+ to say meeting content
15:09:36 <krisannekinney> ... there is the issue of how much W3C will include the type of work we do.   W3C members that think the work is important, please communicate that during discussions.
15:11:02 <krisannekinney> Kevin: ISO is already an internationals standards organization and they have standards related to accessibility.  My challenge would be that those standards are not well known
15:11:28 <krisannekinney> ... and they're not well known because they don't have Education and Outreach.  And for the standards to be known, you have to have Education and outreach.
15:12:09 <krisannekinney> Sharron: we need to make the case to our AC reps that they bring the argument of why EO is important .
15:13:13 <krisannekinney> ...  we need to have some talking points for AC reps.
15:14:17 <krisannekinney> Brent: will the meeting provide people background on the why of this?  Is the meeting is good place to bring up the EO thing?
15:15:32 <krisannekinney> Topic: W3C Inreach
15:16:05 <krisannekinney> Shawn: the group has to charter and approved by each AC rep.
15:16:35 <krisannekinney> ... we can't go forward if there are any objections.
15:17:10 <krisannekinney> 2017 charter was very challenging.
15:19:33 <krisannekinney> Shawn: the last charter in 2020, we did a better job of the members communicating the value of EO.
15:20:19 <Jade> q+
15:20:20 <krisannekinney> ... in the work for this week, if you record your outreach and what you find, it helps us show that value.
15:21:34 <krisannekinney> ... can someone help work on a Wiki page or collection of points and quotes to show that value.
15:23:34 <krisannekinney> Jade:  JISC is a group of Accessibility professionals in the UK so maybe share about resources with that group.
15:24:37 <krisannekinney> Shawn: even if its something we can list on our page, that would be helpful.
15:25:13 <krisannekinney> Jade: ask people to let us know when they use our resources, maybe with a link back or a logo.
15:27:02 <krisannekinney> Shawn: we need a volunteer with a wiki page to document talking points, justifications, quotes from users, lists of resources people are using.
15:27:29 <krisannekinney> Sharron:  we will take this back to the chairs to discuss.
15:27:39 <krisannekinney> Topic: Work for this week
15:28:06 <krisannekinney> Sharron: feedback about the weekly survey is positive and we will make another one today to continue the conversations from today.
15:28:14 <kevin> +1 to Weekly survey... really handy!
15:28:17 <krisannekinney> ... work for this week is updated on the web.
15:28:56 <brent> ack me
15:28:56 <Zakim> brent, you wanted to say meeting content
15:28:59 <brent> ack jade
15:29:32 <krisannekinney> Sharron: the quality of the work EO does is something we want to provide.
15:31:44 <krisannekinney> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:31:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/25-eo-minutes.html krisannekinney
16:13:20 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #eo
17:01:34 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #eo