IRC log of silver-conf on 2022-02-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:52:07 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
- 16:52:07 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-irc
- 16:52:17 [janina]
- Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
- 16:52:25 [janina]
- Date 24 Feb 2022
- 16:52:28 [janina]
- Chair: janina
- 16:52:31 [janina]
- agenda?
- 16:52:38 [janina]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 16:52:41 [janina]
- Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
- 16:52:41 [janina]
- agenda+ User Scenarios Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
- 16:52:44 [janina]
- agenda+ Planning for presentation on Friday's Silver call
- 16:52:47 [janina]
- agenda+ Other Business
- 16:52:49 [janina]
- agenda+ Be Done
- 16:57:41 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:57:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
- 16:58:09 [janina]
- regrets: Darryl_Lehman
- 16:58:14 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:58:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
- 16:58:46 [janina]
- present+
- 16:59:02 [Azlan]
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- 17:00:23 [shadi]
- shadi has joined #silver-conf
- 17:01:39 [PeterKorn]
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- 17:03:05 [ToddL]
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- 17:03:11 [ToddL]
- present+
- 17:03:26 [Azlan]
- present+
- 17:03:33 [PeterKorn]
- present+
- 17:04:00 [janina]
- present+
- 17:04:25 [PeterKorn]
- scribe: PeterKorn
- 17:04:38 [maryjom]
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- 17:04:48 [ToddL]
- I cannot scribe today either. Apologies.
- 17:04:49 [maryjom]
- present+
- 17:04:52 [PeterKorn]
- zakim, next item
- 17:04:52 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
- 17:05:45 [KimD]
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- 17:05:52 [KimD]
- present+
- 17:07:24 [janina]
- q?
- 17:07:30 [PeterKorn]
- zakim, next item
- 17:07:30 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- User Scenarios Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios -- taken up [from janina]
- 17:08:22 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: thanks for everyone who helped with review & feedback for the doc.
- 17:09:12 [PeterKorn]
- ...quick synopsis of changes made in doc
- 17:10:03 [PeterKorn]
- ...removed auto-gen TOC, replaced with manual header, so the intro & problem desc. come earlier.
- 17:10:39 [janina]
- q+
- 17:10:48 [PeterKorn]
- ...using "fully accessible" and "relevant to PwDs" - explaining this in Key Terminology & Concepts
- 17:10:57 [janina]
- q?
- 17:11:05 [PeterKorn]
- ...editing headings as we discussed last week; some few more just came in from Judy
- 17:11:50 [PeterKorn]
- ...updated example 1.3 to make acquisition more general (vs. just of MOOC).
- 17:12:54 [PeterKorn]
- ... example 2.2 is being removed - it was really a 3rd party issue, so only one example in situation 2.
- 17:13:51 [PeterKorn]
- ...cosmetic changes in example 3.2, 4.1. (and make 4.1 more clearly distinct from 5.3)
- 17:14:43 [PeterKorn]
- ...added time limitation consideration for policy around "forever beta" state.
- 17:15:04 [PeterKorn]
- ... some further edits in 9.2 around text alternatives.
- 17:15:13 [PeterKorn]
- ... rest of changes are editorial.
- 17:16:07 [PeterKorn]
- Janina: in situation 4 remediations (maybe also in 5), we say 1st party, 2nd party, 3rd party doesn't match up with typical meaning of 1st party, etc.
- 17:16:26 [janina]
- ack ja
- 17:16:30 [PeterKorn]
- ... maybe drop the "party" designation, and instead just be descriptive
- 17:16:40 [PeterKorn]
- ...shadi: anyone opposed to that change?
- 17:16:51 [PeterKorn]
- <no disagreement with Janina's suggestion>
- 17:16:51 [ToddL]
- Full support here.
- 17:18:20 [PeterKorn]
- Janina: like shorthand version of "fully a11y". Good that we know how to add more a11y, but want a shorthand for ...
- 17:18:33 [Azlan]
- scribe: Azlan
- 17:20:36 [Azlan]
- PeterKorn: There's no way to avoid the issue but how is the situation best presented when if you can't do everything but recognising doing everything may take longer.
- 17:21:13 [Azlan]
- … maybe in our concept of "fully accessible" we give an example?
- 17:22:15 [janina]
- q?
- 17:22:16 [Azlan]
- … This document is about prioritising where you can't do everything immediately
- 17:22:22 [PeterKorn]
- scribe: PeterKorn
- 17:23:30 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: summary of Judy concerns. Situations 1 & 3 have the concerns.
- 17:23:45 [janina]
- q?
- 17:24:00 [PeterKorn]
- ... "When making content fully accessible is not achievable immediately" - isn't this something potentially EVERY web developer might claim?
- 17:24:54 [PeterKorn]
- ...also "When content is accumulating too rapidly to make fully accessible" - again something most web developers would see applying to them?
- 17:27:11 [Azlan]
- q+ to say where do you draw the line? Just employ more staff no matter how big your archive is?
- 17:27:52 [PeterKorn]
- scribe: PeterKorn
- 17:28:08 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: maybe not focusing on rates, but on volumes. E.g. "Large volumes of content"
- 17:28:08 [maryjom]
- +1 to volume
- 17:28:18 [janina]
- ack a
- 17:28:18 [Zakim]
- Azlan, you wanted to say where do you draw the line? Just employ more staff no matter how big your archive is?
- 17:28:44 [PeterKorn]
- Azlan: As Peter said, just because you haven't bothered to hire enough staff to do the work... where do you draw the line?
- 17:28:48 [PeterKorn]
- q?
- 17:28:51 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:29:05 [janina]
- ack pe
- 17:32:19 [PeterKorn]
- scribe: PeterKorn
- 17:32:53 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: happy to add examples to the content. Judy's primary concern (for now) is peoples skimming headers, coming to conclusions just from those.
- 17:33:08 [PeterKorn]
- ... add examples now, or continue to refine titles?
- 17:33:11 [PeterKorn]
- +1 for titles
- 17:33:21 [PeterKorn]
- Janina: biggest hit is top level labels
- 17:34:00 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: add "large volumes of" in front of "content" in situations 1 & 3.
- 17:34:18 [Azlan]
- +1
- 17:34:18 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: does that work?
- 17:34:20 [PeterKorn]
- +1
- 17:34:23 [ToddL]
- +1
- 17:34:31 [KimD]
- +1
- 17:35:35 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: other situation from Judy was with situation 2. "When content is seldom used, if ever"
- 17:36:40 [PeterKorn]
- ...initial discussions were about parts of a page/views that was less relevant/less essential
- 17:37:04 [PeterKorn]
- ...only thing left in situation 2 is archived content
- 17:37:08 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:37:20 [janina]
- ack pe
- 17:42:46 [maryjom]
- One example might be archives of government content - eg old census info, old birth certificates, deeds, legal documents and so on that may have been scanned but not OCR or described.
- 17:43:21 [PeterKorn]
- maryjom: reiterates her typed comment.
- 17:43:48 [PeterKorn]
- ...old data like family history going back generations. Seldom used, but you would want to use on demand.
- 17:44:09 [PeterKorn]
- ...court documents, deeds. Lots of older/historical data. Not all digitized. And they are digitizing it over time.
- 17:44:24 [janina]
- q?
- 17:44:31 [PeterKorn]
- ... there is some other method/mechanism to get access.
- 17:44:32 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:46:19 [PeterKorn]
- Janina: likes not having "archived" in the situation title.
- 17:46:58 [PeterKorn]
- ...like ancestry example, as it covers the situation better than legal deeds (not just gov't)
- 17:47:20 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: is any of the data current, or is it all old? Is there a temporal component to this?
- 17:49:56 [PeterKorn]
- Shadi: 3 approaches
- 17:50:36 [PeterKorn]
- ... 1: Shadi tries to come up with something for situation 2 title; 2: remove the situation from the document and return to it later;
- 17:50:47 [PeterKorn]
- ... 3: continue discussing it, maybe beyond end of hour
- 17:51:18 [PeterKorn]
- Peter: "rarely if ever" or "almost never"?
- 17:53:04 [PeterKorn]
- shadi: before returning microphone to Janina - any thoughts from Tod/Azlan/Wilco?
- 17:53:30 [PeterKorn]
- Azlan: listening to discussion (not minuted) of prioritization, the example makes a lot of sense to him.
- 17:53:56 [PeterKorn]
- ...makes more sense than archives of new content. Can hear Gregg "if we are making content available to some people, why not all?"
- 17:54:25 [PeterKorn]
- ...prioritzation is a situation I can completely understand. Even as new content comes in - may supersede something that may not have been made a11y.
- 17:54:54 [PeterKorn]
- KimD: really like what Peter said earlier - "you don't know what you need until you need it"
- 17:55:28 [PeterKorn]
- ... we don't make PDFs of every single thing that is available in print. But if a student needs it, we make the print material available in a11y digital format.
- 17:55:41 [PeterKorn]
- ... you don't know in advance what you will need in the alternate format.
- 17:55:45 [ToddL]
- I've got to run to another meeting. Thank you everyone.
- 17:56:29 [PeterKorn]
- Janina: we have 1/2 of Friday call (2nd on agenda).
- 17:56:49 [PeterKorn]
- ...expect that Shawn will turn mic over to Janina, who will pass to Shadi.
- 17:57:27 [PeterKorn]
- ...while we were tasked with 3rd party, we actually found 11 situations that needed to be addressed. We felt an overall map was important.
- 17:57:53 [PeterKorn]
- ...then we might do a deeper dive w/Silver on 1 or 2 of them, and invite Silver to do a close read on their own after.
- 17:58:12 [PeterKorn]
- ...also ask folks to consider "neutral language" in this text.
- 17:58:29 [PeterKorn]
- ...remaining question: what to walk out of meeting with?
- 18:01:41 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:01:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
- 18:05:37 [KimD]
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