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16:52:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-irc
16:52:17 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:52:25 <janina> Date 24 Feb 2022
16:52:28 <janina> Chair: janina
16:52:31 <janina> agenda?
16:52:38 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:52:41 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:52:41 <janina> agenda+ User Scenarios Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
16:52:44 <janina> agenda+ Planning for presentation on Friday's Silver call
16:52:47 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:52:49 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
16:57:41 <janina>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
16:58:09 <janina> regrets: Darryl_Lehman
16:58:14 <janina>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
16:58:46 <janina> present+
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17:03:11 <ToddL> present+
17:03:26 <Azlan> present+
17:03:33 <PeterKorn> present+
17:04:00 <janina> present+
17:04:25 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:04:38 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver-conf
17:04:48 <ToddL> I cannot scribe today either. Apologies.
17:04:49 <maryjom> present+
17:04:52 <PeterKorn> zakim, next item
17:04:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:05:45 <KimD> KimD has joined #silver-conf
17:05:52 <KimD> present+
17:07:24 <janina> q?
17:07:30 <PeterKorn> zakim, next item
17:07:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- User Scenarios Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios -- taken up [from janina]
17:08:22 <PeterKorn> Shadi: thanks for everyone who helped with review & feedback for the doc.
17:09:12 <PeterKorn> ...quick synopsis of changes made in doc
17:10:03 <PeterKorn> ...removed auto-gen TOC, replaced with manual header, so the intro & problem desc. come earlier.
17:10:39 <janina> q+
17:10:48 <PeterKorn> ...using "fully accessible" and "relevant to PwDs" - explaining this in Key Terminology & Concepts
17:10:57 <janina> q?
17:11:05 <PeterKorn> ...editing headings as we discussed last week; some few more just came in from Judy
17:11:50 <PeterKorn> ...updated example 1.3 to make acquisition more general (vs. just of MOOC).
17:12:54 <PeterKorn> ... example 2.2 is being removed - it was really a 3rd party issue, so only one example in situation 2.
17:13:51 <PeterKorn> ...cosmetic changes in example 3.2, 4.1. (and make 4.1 more clearly distinct from 5.3)
17:14:43 <PeterKorn> ...added time limitation consideration for policy around "forever beta" state.
17:15:04 <PeterKorn> ... some further edits in 9.2 around text alternatives.
17:15:13 <PeterKorn> ... rest of changes are editorial.
17:16:07 <PeterKorn> Janina: in situation 4 remediations (maybe also in 5), we say 1st party, 2nd party, 3rd party doesn't match up with typical meaning of 1st party, etc.
17:16:26 <janina> ack ja
17:16:30 <PeterKorn> ... maybe drop the "party" designation, and instead just be descriptive
17:16:40 <PeterKorn> ...shadi: anyone opposed to that change?
17:16:51 <PeterKorn> <no disagreement with Janina's suggestion>
17:16:51 <ToddL> Full support here.
17:18:20 <PeterKorn> Janina: like shorthand version of "fully a11y".  Good that we know how to add more a11y, but want a shorthand for ...
17:18:33 <Azlan> scribe: Azlan
17:20:36 <Azlan> PeterKorn: There's no way to avoid the issue but how is the situation best presented when if you can't do everything but recognising doing everything may take longer.
17:21:13 <Azlan> … maybe in our concept of "fully accessible" we give an example?
17:22:15 <janina> q?
17:22:16 <Azlan> … This document is about prioritising where you can't do everything immediately
17:22:22 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:23:30 <PeterKorn> Shadi: summary of Judy concerns.  Situations 1 & 3 have the concerns.
17:23:45 <janina> q?
17:24:00 <PeterKorn> ... "When making content fully accessible is not achievable immediately" - isn't this something potentially EVERY web developer might claim?
17:24:54 <PeterKorn> ...also "When content is accumulating too rapidly to make fully accessible" - again something most web developers would see applying to them?
17:27:11 <Azlan> q+ to say where do you draw the line? Just employ more staff no matter how big your archive is?
17:27:52 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:28:08 <PeterKorn> Shadi: maybe not focusing on rates, but on volumes.  E.g. "Large volumes of content"
17:28:08 <maryjom> +1 to volume
17:28:18 <janina> ack a
17:28:18 <Zakim> Azlan, you wanted to say where do you draw the line? Just employ more staff no matter how big your archive is?
17:28:44 <PeterKorn> Azlan: As Peter said, just because you haven't bothered to hire enough staff to do the work...  where do you draw the line?
17:28:48 <PeterKorn> q?
17:28:51 <PeterKorn> q+
17:29:05 <janina> ack pe
17:32:19 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:32:53 <PeterKorn> Shadi: happy to add examples to the content.  Judy's primary concern (for now) is peoples skimming headers, coming to conclusions just from those.
17:33:08 <PeterKorn> ... add examples now, or continue to refine titles?
17:33:11 <PeterKorn> +1 for titles
17:33:21 <PeterKorn> Janina: biggest hit is top level labels
17:34:00 <PeterKorn> Shadi: add "large volumes of" in front of "content" in situations 1 & 3.
17:34:18 <Azlan> +1
17:34:18 <PeterKorn> Shadi: does that work?
17:34:20 <PeterKorn> +1
17:34:23 <ToddL> +1
17:34:31 <KimD> +1
17:35:35 <PeterKorn> Shadi: other situation from Judy was with situation 2.  "When content is seldom used, if ever"
17:36:40 <PeterKorn> ...initial discussions were about parts of a page/views that was less relevant/less essential
17:37:04 <PeterKorn> ...only thing left in situation 2 is archived content
17:37:08 <PeterKorn> q+
17:37:20 <janina> ack pe
17:42:46 <maryjom> One example might be archives of government content - eg old census info, old birth certificates, deeds, legal documents and so on that may have been scanned but not OCR or described.
17:43:21 <PeterKorn> maryjom: reiterates her typed comment.
17:43:48 <PeterKorn> ...old data like family history going back generations.  Seldom used, but you would want to use on demand.
17:44:09 <PeterKorn> ...court documents, deeds.  Lots of older/historical data.  Not all digitized.  And they are digitizing it over time.
17:44:24 <janina> q?
17:44:31 <PeterKorn> ... there is some other method/mechanism to get access.
17:44:32 <PeterKorn> q+
17:46:19 <PeterKorn> Janina: likes not having "archived" in the situation title.
17:46:58 <PeterKorn> ...like ancestry example, as it covers the situation better than legal deeds (not just gov't)
17:47:20 <PeterKorn> Shadi: is any of the data current, or is it all old?  Is there a temporal component to this?
17:49:56 <PeterKorn> Shadi: 3 approaches
17:50:36 <PeterKorn> ... 1: Shadi tries to come up with something for situation 2 title; 2: remove the situation from the document and return to it later;
17:50:47 <PeterKorn> ... 3: continue discussing it, maybe beyond end of hour
17:51:18 <PeterKorn> Peter: "rarely if ever" or "almost never"?
17:53:04 <PeterKorn> shadi: before returning microphone to Janina - any thoughts from Tod/Azlan/Wilco?
17:53:30 <PeterKorn> Azlan: listening to discussion (not minuted) of prioritization, the example makes a lot of sense to him.
17:53:56 <PeterKorn> ...makes more sense than archives of new content.  Can hear Gregg "if we are making content available to some people, why not all?"
17:54:25 <PeterKorn> ...prioritzation is a situation I can completely understand.  Even as new content comes in - may supersede something that may not have been made a11y.
17:54:54 <PeterKorn> KimD: really like what Peter said earlier - "you don't know what you need until you need it"
17:55:28 <PeterKorn> ... we don't make PDFs of every single thing that is available in print.  But if a student needs it, we make the print material available in a11y digital format.
17:55:41 <PeterKorn> ... you don't know in advance what you will need in the alternate format.
17:55:45 <ToddL> I've got to run to another meeting. Thank you everyone.
17:56:29 <PeterKorn> Janina: we have 1/2 of Friday call (2nd on agenda).
17:56:49 <PeterKorn> ...expect that Shawn will turn mic over to Janina, who will pass to Shadi.
17:57:27 <PeterKorn> ...while we were tasked with 3rd party, we actually found 11 situations that needed to be addressed.  We felt an overall map was important.
17:57:53 <PeterKorn> ...then we might do a deeper dive w/Silver on 1 or 2 of them, and invite Silver to do a close read on their own after.
17:58:12 <PeterKorn> ...also ask folks to consider "neutral language" in this text.
17:58:29 <PeterKorn> ...remaining question: what to walk out of meeting with?
18:01:41 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
18:05:37 <KimD> KimD has left #silver-conf