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14:45:17 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:45:18 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
14:45:43 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-pcg-a11y-minutes.html avneeshsingh
14:46:03 <avneeshsingh> present+
14:46:09 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
14:46:57 <avneeshsingh> zakim, agenda+ Plannning for next revision of User experience guide for displaying accessibility metadata.
14:46:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:47:26 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
14:47:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- How to group the DPUB ARIA roles for presenting them to ARIA WG? -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
14:47:48 <avneeshsingh> zakim, leave
14:47:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been avneeshsingh, gpellegrino, CharlesL, Alex_Grover_, Madeleine, zheng_xu, Naomi
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14:48:19 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:48:19 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
14:48:30 <avneeshsingh> present+
14:48:38 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
14:49:12 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ Plannning for next revision of User experience guide for displaying accessibility metadata.
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15:01:46 <Gautier> present+
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15:04:15 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:04:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Plannning for next revision of User experience guide for displaying accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
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15:05:04 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: first version of the user experience guide was released last year as we needed feedback and we've received our first from Gautier at EDRLab, also waiting on US and Italy
15:05:11 <zheng_xu> present+
15:05:35 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: we planned to start a new revision in this timeframe as the new EPUB Accessibility specification is going to CR so we need to update the guide to this new version
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15:06:02 <Naomi> present+
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15:06:51 <mgarrish> Gautier: avneeshsingh has sent the feedback to the group email so I won't provide full review - we translated the guide into French and held four workshops with 40 persons
15:07:39 <mgarrish> ... we're looking to find out if the information is useful to users and also if it is easy to implement
15:07:40 <avneeshsingh> User experience guide 1.0: https://www.w3.org/publishing/a11y/UX-Guide-metadata/principles/
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15:08:23 <mgarrish> ... we were not asking the general public for feedback but were asking users with specific needs - AT users and users of libraries for blind
15:09:00 <mgarrish> ... the feedback we had was not very good, we synthesized the reactions to six items
15:09:41 <mgarrish> ... felt the wording was overspecialized, but may not be in scope of the work we have to do now - potentially a localized problem with the translation
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15:10:42 <mgarrish> kerscher: we use the term screenreader friendly but if that term is not used in French then the localization could be the names of the AT (Jaws, etc.). Would that kind of localization help?
15:11:38 <mgarrish> Gautier: what we see is using more generic terms
15:11:56 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: we can discuss the wordy details later on
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15:12:32 <mgarrish> Gautier: we will have seven workshops about wording that we can share but we think it is a local problem
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15:13:08 <mgarrish> ... also found that some information is missing, some users are interested in the format and whether there is DRM
15:13:45 <MadeleineRothberg> q+
15:14:09 <mgarrish> ... we have strategies to handle this, but came from all users
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15:14:55 <mgarrish> ... this information is useful to all readers, too, not just for accessibility
15:15:01 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:15:02 <gpellegrino> present+
15:16:00 <mgarrish> ... look at broadening the meaning of accessibility as applicable for all
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15:16:25 <mgarrish> ... also had difficult with mapping to onix and marc, need more work on this
15:17:13 <mgarrish> ... after this feedback we made a proposal to the participants to reorganize the information
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15:18:41 <mgarrish> s/kerscher/GeorgeK/
15:19:22 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: there are several pieces of the feedback that we need to think about how to make localizable
15:19:48 <mgarrish> ... a lot of DAISY board members for example think we should not use terms like print disabled
15:20:10 <mgarrish> ... we are interested in extending the schema.org/onix crosswalk to add marc
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15:20:19 <mgarrish> ... but first we need to figure out scope issues
15:20:20 <avneeshsingh> ack madel
15:21:19 <mgarrish> ... the design of the guide was specifically for accessibility metadata - this feedback includes fixed layout, format, drm, but it is confusing where these lie
15:21:39 <mgarrish> ... the information is generally useful to users - more generic properties
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15:22:14 <mgarrish> ... drm is another example of what all users would like to know - helps accessibility but not specific to it
15:22:17 <GeorgeK> q+
15:22:22 <MadeleineRothberg> q+
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15:22:36 <mgarrish> ... should all these items be part of the guide?
15:22:37 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:22:41 <gpellegrino> q+
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15:22:58 <CharlesL> present+
15:23:18 <CharlesL> q+
15:23:41 <mgarrish> Gautier: there is a lot of importance in knowing if a book is reflowable or fixed, example for readers with dyslexia who do not use screen readers and need to know if content can be controlled
15:23:41 <avneeshsingh> ack geor
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15:24:33 <mgarrish> GeorgeK: some of these things are not accessibility-specific. I see on VitalSource that they say fixed or reflowable but what they mean is it is PDF or EPUB, but an EPUB can be either fixed or reflowable
15:24:51 <mgarrish> ... I would see adding a section that is geared toward more general information about the book
15:25:20 <mgarrish> ... can discuss the higher-level items that are broadly useful to know
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15:26:16 <mgarrish> ... drm is added after the publisher distributes the book so it is the reponsibility of the ditributor, but we could recommend that they include information about the impact of the drm on accessibility like whether you can copy and paste
15:26:37 <mgarrish> ... adding page numbers in the section would also really help
15:26:40 <avneeshsingh> next madel
15:27:05 <mgarrish> MadeleineRothberg: the proposal for grouping the properties is a useful idea and perhaps that will be a way to approach the general information
15:27:15 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:27:28 <mgarrish> ... we worked only on the accessibility metadata itself but we can expand to metadata that isn't in these specifications
15:27:31 <avneeshsingh> ack made
15:27:40 <mgarrish> ... so if you have information from other sources here is how you can integrate it
15:27:44 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
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15:28:17 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: perhaps we can add an appendix to handle this information since it is not directly accessibility related but important for the product page
15:28:34 <mgarrish> ... it is not a specification so we don't have to mandate what to include
15:28:35 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:29:04 <tzviya> q+ to comment on DRM
15:29:06 <mgarrish> CharlesL: we started this with just the accessibility metadata so pointing out the other information is useful
15:29:26 <Gautier> q+
15:29:26 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:29:29 <mgarrish> ... we could also provide a glossary of terms that explain what we mean to help with understanding and translation
15:29:41 <avneeshsingh> ack tzv
15:29:41 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to comment on DRM
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15:30:04 <vince> how do I get on the speaker queue?
15:30:13 <mgarrish> tzviya: a comment about drm and whether it gets in the way of accessibility - publishers cannot provide this information
15:30:30 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:30:56 <vince> q+
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15:31:15 <mgarrish> Gautier: the user is sometimes able to pick the drm at the time of download - the bookseller can let them know the issues
15:31:44 <mgarrish> ... I believe a set of definitions would be really useful, too
15:32:10 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:32:49 <mgarrish> vince: there are problems with the platform and reader that can cause problems - like mathml support
15:33:02 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:33:13 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:33:16 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: the accessibilityFeature property helps list theses
15:33:19 <CharlesL> q+
15:33:24 <mgarrish> s/theses/these/
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15:34:16 <mgarrish> GeorgeK: we need to bring any changes to the larger group before implementing because there are implications beyond this group
15:34:59 <mgarrish> ... we need to get feedback about the scope from as many groups as possible and incorporate their concerns so that we meet their needs
15:35:31 <mgarrish> ... we need to ensure the principles and guidance that is universal and can be translated so that we don't get different implementations
15:35:35 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:35:45 <avneeshsingh> ack cha
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15:36:22 <mgarrish> CharlesL: we lacked expertise for marc harmonization when we did the first version - need help to build out the mappings
15:36:26 <Gautier> q+
15:36:56 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:37:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> I could recruit a MARC expert who might be able to help.
15:37:33 <mgarrish> Gautier: I work with two people on unimarc but that's not marc21
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15:38:50 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: from the discussions so far the scope on accessibility metadata looks fine, but it looks like we'll also elaborate to include the more universal metadata
15:39:15 <mgarrish> ... it is okay to have this kind of section where we can mentioned drm, fixed layouts, etc.
15:39:21 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:39:26 <mgarrish> s/mentioned/mention/
15:40:09 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: another question is the timeline issue - we have the French feedback but not yet from Italy or the US
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15:40:40 <mgarrish> ... I expect this work will continue throughout the year as we'll need to harmonize all feedback
15:40:53 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:41:00 <mgarrish> ... let's start with the French feedback but also look to integrate the additional feedback we expect
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15:41:28 <mgarrish> GeorgeK: I'm not sure who in the US is planning to provide feedback - I don't know of an organized effort
15:41:32 <MURATA_> JP is not at all ready.
15:41:57 <mgarrish> ... once we start the marc discussion we'll bring in a wider group of people but not sure where that sits in timeline
15:42:36 <CharlesL> q+
15:42:41 <mgarrish> MURATA_: we have requirements specific to Japanese community - we haven't gotten into exactly how this will be done
15:42:49 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:42:58 <avneeshsingh> q-
15:42:58 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: we don't have to rush the feedback if iterations are needed
15:43:09 <avneeshsingh> ack ch
15:43:24 <mgarrish> CharlesL: would extra spacing and vertical issues require new features?
15:43:58 <mgarrish> MURATA_: different opinions on this but you will have to embed some information in an EPUB
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15:44:30 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: can you recruit some marc21 people before the next call Bill_Kasdorf?
15:44:44 <mgarrish> Bill_Kasdorf: yes, I should be able to get someone within the next week?
15:44:49 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:45:19 <mgarrish> ... I'm on a NISO working group where we have some librarians that use marc routinely
15:45:45 <mgarrish> ... marc is impenetrable to people who don't use it routinely
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15:46:19 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: we can discuss unimarc and marc21 in the next call
15:47:36 <mgarrish> GeorgeK: do we want to reach out to any other groups? I can ping some people from Canada
15:48:06 <avneeshsingh> q?
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15:48:17 <Gautier> q+
15:49:28 <MadeleineRothberg> q+
15:49:29 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: accessiblity summary comes up a lot - we were assuming publishers would provide details in this field but it doesn't look like it's being used
15:49:32 <gpellegrino> q+
15:49:38 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:49:51 <tzviya> q+ to ask if the way that publishers use a11y summary is at all helpful
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15:50:23 <gpellegrino> q-
15:50:56 <mgarrish> Gautier: I'm not sure how to integrate the feedback with the github tracker
15:51:07 <avneeshsingh> ack made
15:51:51 <mgarrish> MadeleineRothberg: summary versus a list of features depends on which are available - the people reading this guide don't have control over what is provided so we can only suggest how it be used
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15:51:56 <GeorgeK> q?
15:52:05 <GeorgeK> q+
15:52:23 <mgarrish> ... perhaps we need to say if the summary is available you need to make sure readers can access it
15:52:53 <mgarrish> ... sounds like we should elevate some accessibility features into another interface rather than grouping everything else
15:53:03 <avneeshsingh> ack tzviya
15:53:03 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if the way that publishers use a11y summary is at all helpful
15:53:39 <mgarrish> tzviya: in the epub specification there is a delineation between the requirements of the epub and the reading system - I can put a lot of things into the metadata that may not get used
15:53:51 <MURATA_> +1
15:54:00 <mgarrish> ... not sure if the summary is useful to users - we add it but would like feedback on how it's used
15:54:20 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:54:26 <mgarrish> avneeshsingh: we have a plan to write a guide on how to author summaries but it keeps getting delayed by this guide
15:54:43 <mgarrish> ... could you provide feedback on it Gautier?
15:54:50 <CharlesL> q+
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15:55:34 <mgarrish> Gautier: from the user's perspective it was not seen as helpful because it may not be written well - but if we have guidelines on how to write a good summary that would be helpful
15:56:37 <Naomi> q+
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15:57:21 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:57:36 <MadeleineRothberg> q+
15:57:38 <mgarrish> GeorgeK: the accessilbity summary was introduced to provide an easy to read description - now that we have a guide that explains how to translate the metadata into something that is easier to read the importance of the summary is reduced
15:58:19 <mgarrish> ... publishers are looking for a boilerplate summary that isn't customized for each title so it further becomes less useful
15:58:41 <mgarrish> ... there is also a 500 character limit imposed by some vendors so the future of summaries is uncertain
15:58:52 <avneeshsingh> ack next
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15:59:52 <mgarrish> CharlesL: adding a summary is required by the accessibility specification and all GCA publishers are adding it with detailed information - also meant to have specific information about issues that aren't covered by the general metadata
16:00:07 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:00:14 <avneeshsingh> ack next
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16:01:14 <mgarrish> Naomi: we are putting summaries into all our titles but it is formulaic based on the hazards - we may add more information in the future - the summary explains the other metadata; it does not repeat it
16:01:23 <avneeshsingh> ack next
16:01:57 <mgarrish> MadeleineRothberg: summary was also meant for niche cases that are not easy to explain through the regular accessibility metadata
16:01:58 <CharlesL> +1 to what MadeleineRothberg said exactly!
16:06:31 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/24-pcg-a11y-minutes.html avneeshsingh
16:07:43 <avneeshsingh> zakim, leave
16:07:43 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been avneeshsingh, Alex_Grover, tzviya, mgarrish, Gautier, MadeleineRothberg, Bill_Kasdorf, zheng_xu, Naomi, gpellegrino, CharlesL
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16:11:55 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
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