16:48:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
16:48:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-silver-conf-irc
16:48:33 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:48:37 <janina> Chair: Janina
16:48:42 <janina> Date: 17 Feb 2022
16:48:49 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:48:52 <janina> agenda?
16:48:56 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:48:56 <janina> agenda+ User Scenarios Review
16:48:56 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:48:56 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
16:49:08 <janina>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
16:50:12 <janina> agenda?
16:53:13 <janina> present+
16:53:18 <janina>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:53:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
17:01:07 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
17:01:12 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
17:01:21 <PeterKorn> present+
17:01:29 <Todd> Todd has joined #silver-conf
17:01:37 <DarrylLehmann> DarrylLehmann has joined #silver-conf
17:02:26 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver-conf
17:02:34 <Azlan> present+
17:02:42 <Todd> present+
17:03:29 <DarrylLehmann> present+
17:03:33 <shadi> present+
17:03:55 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKOrn
17:05:15 <Judy> Judy has joined #silver-conf
17:05:27 <PeterKorn> zakim, next item
17:05:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:13 <PeterKorn> zakim, next item
17:07:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- User Scenarios Review -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:20 <PeterKorn> zakim, take up item 3
17:07:20 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Other Business -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:41 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
17:07:44 <Wilco> present+
17:07:53 <PeterKorn> Janina: welcome Judy to join the conversation, as we look at our scenarios document
17:08:10 <maryjom_> maryjom_ has joined #silver-conf
17:09:52 <PeterKorn> Judy: concern that this doc may be repeating a trap that we ran into previously.
17:10:06 <janina> q?
17:10:21 <PeterKorn> Judy: That said, document is very clear - lots of great content, way to start the discussion.
17:10:37 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver-conf
17:11:10 <GreggVan> present+
17:11:12 <PeterKorn> Judy: looking at table of context, language has statements that may give an incorrect gist.
17:11:43 <PeterKorn> Judy: e.g., "Situation 5: Content providers may have dependencies on other services" - a neutral statement of a thorny issue.  Awesome.
17:12:23 <PeterKorn> Judy: e.g, "Situation 7: ..."  - also neutral.  Lays out a real-life thing.  But the top few situations aren't this neutral.
17:12:50 <PeterKorn> Judy; "Situation 2: Not all content needs to be made accessible, especially legacy content". That is such a sweeping statement, rather than
17:12:59 <PeterKorn> ... a neutral statement of a situation.
17:13:16 <janina> q?
17:13:34 <GreggVan> q+  to say    " shouldn't     " Content providers may have dependencies on other services"  be better worded as   " Content providers and dependencies on other services"      since  "may" is a normative word and sounds like a statement rather than a topic.
17:13:39 <PeterKorn> Judy: for people who only look at subheadings, we could give people the incorrect gist.
17:14:08 <PeterKorn> Judy: if you can address that, the document may be received better.
17:14:57 <PeterKorn> Judy: other things can say about the doc, but this is the priority item.  It is really about framing
17:15:18 <PeterKorn> Gregg: Amen and +1 to Judy.
17:16:09 <PeterKorn> Gregg: suggests even with situation 5, better to have it be a "topic" rather than a "scenario"
17:16:23 <janina> q+
17:16:27 <PeterKorn> Judy: hearing even one more level of neutrality
17:16:28 <PeterKorn> q+
17:16:30 <janina> ack gr
17:16:30 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say    " shouldn't     " Content providers may have dependencies on other services"  be better worded as   " Content providers and dependencies on other
17:16:33 <Zakim> ... services"      since  "may" is a normative word and sounds like a statement rather than a topic.
17:17:10 <PeterKorn> Judy: Scenario 5 title as written speaks to the terrain of the issue.  Group may want to debate what level of neutrality to go for.
17:17:40 <PeterKorn> Gregg: "might" instead of "may" would move us away from standards language.
17:18:15 <Azlan> scribe: Azlan
17:18:19 <shadi> +1 to Janina
17:18:20 <janina> ack ja
17:18:21 <Azlan> ack PeterKorn
17:18:22 <janina> ack pe
17:19:01 <PeterKorn> q?
17:19:07 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:19:08 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Wonder how we can make these edits before Friday is we collect or address these comments now
17:19:09 <shadi> q+
17:20:09 <PeterKorn> Judy: don't have good language change suggestions quite yet
17:20:38 <PeterKorn> q+
17:20:47 <GreggVan> q+
17:21:05 <PeterKorn> Judy: should we take a bit of time to do this - push the Silver review off by a week.
17:21:24 <janina> q+
17:21:26 <PeterKorn> Shadi: don't feel we are going for approval; this is the first time broader group will see this.  OK to come in with an early draft.
17:21:28 <Todd> +1 to Shadi
17:21:46 <PeterKorn> q-
17:21:49 <Judy> q+ to comment on timing of subgroup revisions and bringing it to tf
17:21:54 <PeterKorn> Want to get as much from Judy as we can just now.
17:22:01 <DarrylLehmann> +1 Shadi
17:22:05 <janina> q?
17:22:07 <shadi> ack me
17:22:07 <PeterKorn> Shadi: can we get as much from Judy now as we can.
17:22:17 <GreggVan> q-
17:22:18 <janina> ack sha
17:22:23 <GreggVan> q+
17:22:38 <PeterKorn> Judy: respectfully disagree with taking this document with current headers up 1 level into Silver, it will be automatically bringing it in as a controversial document.
17:22:44 <Wilco> +1 this is already controversial
17:22:47 <PeterKorn> ... will bring it in with an inflamed discussion
17:23:23 <PeterKorn> ... take things that look like statements and turn them into something that is more helpful rather than worrisome, you will have
17:23:29 <PeterKorn> ... a whole evolution of the document smoother.
17:24:56 <PeterKorn> Janina: don't have an endpoint of this doc.   Not very concerned with Friday/Silver call, but definitely trepidation with AGWG.
17:24:59 <shadi> +1 convinced by Judy
17:25:08 <PeterKorn> q+
17:25:13 <PeterKorn> ack janina
17:25:37 <janina> ack ja
17:25:59 <PeterKorn> Judy: would be better prepared on a followup meeting
17:26:08 <janina> ack ju
17:26:08 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to comment on timing of subgroup revisions and bringing it to tf
17:26:10 <janina> ack gr
17:26:44 <PeterKorn> Gregg: If you can just highlight the concerning subheadings, that would be helpful.
17:27:22 <PeterKorn> Janina: would be useful for Friday.  They have provided friendly, useful input
17:28:08 <PeterKorn> Judy: expects you can figure most of these out.
17:28:45 <Judy> s/these out./these out -- this is a phenomenal group of people in this group.../
17:28:50 <Azlan> scribe: Azlan
17:29:04 <Azlan> zakim, take up item 2
17:29:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- User Scenarios Review -- taken up [from janina]
17:29:44 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Situation 5 seems pretty good. Situation 7 also pretty good. So will start from the top.
17:30:41 <PeterKorn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
17:30:59 <shadi> [[When making content accessible can not be achieved immediately]]
17:32:08 <Azlan> PeterKorn: "Not all content needs to be made accessible" needs work
17:32:20 <janina> q?
17:32:55 <DarrylLehmann> +1
17:32:56 <janina> ack pe
17:33:36 <Azlan> Situation 3 - needs a little more work
17:33:58 <Azlan> Situation 4 - seems good
17:33:58 <shadi> [[When content is accumulating too rapidly to be made accessible]]
17:34:32 <Azlan> Situation 5 - Greggs suggested change "When content providers have..."
17:34:35 <Judy> Judy has left #silver-conf
17:34:45 <shadi> [[When content providers have dependencies on other services]]
17:35:01 <Judy> Judy has joined #silver-conf
17:35:02 <Azlan> Situation 6 -
17:35:15 <Azlan> GreggVan: Want to insert "always"
17:35:29 <Azlan> Situation 7 - this is good
17:35:37 <shadi> [[Bugs and other issues of oversight ALWAYS occur in content]]
17:35:48 <Azlan> Situation 8 - needs more work
17:36:05 <Azlan> Situation 9 - needs work but it is not far off
17:36:21 <shadi> [[When there are limitations to how accessible content can be made]]
17:37:37 <Azlan> Situation 10 - "walled garden use case"
17:38:08 <Judy> Judy has left #silver-conf
17:38:43 <Azlan> needs work
17:38:51 <shadi> [[Small businesses might observe particular challenges]]
17:39:02 <Azlan> Situation 11
17:39:26 <shadi> [[Small businesses face unique challenges]]
17:39:56 <Azlan> janina: "Small businesses face unique challenges"
17:41:32 <janina> q?
17:41:35 <janina> q+
17:42:34 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Returning to situation 1 - When making content accessible may not be achievable immediately
17:42:58 <Azlan> janina: Would be more comfortable with stating fully accessible
17:43:16 <Azlan> GreggVan: When Making content fully accessible may not be achievable immediately
17:44:28 <Azlan> When making content fully accessible is not be achievable immediately
17:45:21 <maryjom_> Maybe this: When making content fully accessible is not immediately achievable
17:45:22 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Situation 3: Content is accumulating too rapidly to make fully accessible
17:46:16 <Azlan> Situation 5: When content providers have dependencies on other services
17:46:59 <Azlan> Might want to look at example 5.3
17:50:05 <PeterKorn> Situation 8: Current limitations in providing full accessibility in real-time
17:53:07 <Azlan> Situation 9: Current limitations in making some content fully accessdible
17:55:28 <Todd> Have to run to another meeting. Thanks everyone.
17:58:29 <PeterKorn> "The university does not prioritize reviewing and retrofitting exchanges among the students on various discussion fora. These could have sporadic accessibility issues, such as unmarked language changes. The university indicates this accessibility limitation in an accessibility statement"
17:59:40 <Azlan> GreggVan: this is third party content so shouldn't be here
18:00:08 <Azlan> Situation 2: When content is seldom if ever used
18:00:56 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Given GreggVan concerns about example 2.2 do we need to clean this up before we go to Silver tomorrow?
18:01:40 <Azlan> shadi: we are not under time pressure we can wait a week
18:01:48 <Wilco> q+
18:02:06 <shadi> q- janina
18:02:08 <Azlan> GreggVan: we could remove the examples that say the content doesn't have to be made accessible to everybody
18:02:56 <Azlan> Consensus we will spend extra time before going to silver
18:03:30 <Azlan> Wilco: Don't think it is this document that is controversial. It is that there are exceptions that is controversial
18:05:10 <Azlan> GreggVan: we need to be clear in the intro
18:06:44 <Azlan> zakim, bye
18:06:44 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been janina, PeterKorn, Azlan, Todd, DarrylLehmann, shadi, Wilco, GreggVan
18:06:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf
18:06:58 <Azlan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-silver-conf-minutes.html Azlan