14:42:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:42:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-i18n-irc
14:42:19 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:42:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:42:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:42:25 <trackbot> Date: 17 February 2022
14:42:30 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:42:38 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5e4758ba-3e80-4e71-b333-5f2c4fd95abd/20220217T150000
14:42:38 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:42:38 <agendabot> agenda+ Tracker:  -> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:42:38 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR:  -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:42:41 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending:  -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
14:43:07 <addison> clear agenda
14:43:11 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
14:43:14 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
14:43:18 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
14:43:22 <addison> agenda+ Radar
14:43:37 <addison> agenda+ String-Meta Explainer
14:43:52 <addison> agenda+ WOT Thing Description review
14:44:01 <addison> agenda+ Pending issue review
14:44:20 <addison> agenda+ In-person for TPAC?
14:44:38 <addison> agenda+ RTL named group support in URLPattern
14:44:42 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
14:45:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:54:19 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
14:54:22 <addison> present+
14:55:33 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
14:58:36 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi
14:59:31 <addison> scribenick xfq
15:00:15 <xfq> scribe: xfq
15:00:41 <nordzilla> nordzilla has joined #i18n
15:01:07 <addison> present+ Erik
15:01:26 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:03:12 <Najib> Najib has joined #i18n
15:03:14 <addison> present+ David, Bert
15:03:30 <addison> agenda?
15:03:36 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from addison]
15:03:45 <David> David has joined #I18n
15:04:17 <xfq> addison: was it an improvement over last weeks agenda?
15:04:39 <xfq> s/weeks/week's/
15:04:56 <JcK> present+ JcK
15:05:22 <xfq> Bert: I'll make sure agendabot recognizes your format
15:05:42 <xfq> addison: maybe I shouldn't use a bullet list
15:06:25 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:06:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from addison]
15:06:33 <xfq> agendabot: does anybody have anything to add to the agenda?
15:07:08 <xfq> JcK: can we have plain text @@ HTML?
15:08:12 <xfq> addison: I only own the part between the word "Agenda" and "Joining Instructions"
15:08:44 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:08:46 <xfq> r12a: you can have spacing between "BE PREPARED", "REMINDER", etc.
15:09:21 <JcK> That was not a request for plain text -- I'm going to read it that way regardless -- just for understanding of the implications to that format.
15:09:51 <xfq> addison: 1094 is dependent on the explainer
15:10:16 <xfq> ... 1103 is also dependent on the explainer
15:11:51 <xfq> s/dependent/dependant/G
15:12:55 <xfq> trackbot, close ACTION-1118
15:12:55 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1118.
15:13:17 <xfq> trackbot, close ACTION-1119
15:13:17 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1119.
15:13:26 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:13:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from addison]
15:13:37 <xfq> trackbot, close ACTION-1117
15:13:37 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1117.
15:13:48 <xfq> trackbot, open ACTION-1118
15:13:48 <trackbot> Sorry, xfq, I don't understand 'trackbot, open ACTION-1118'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
15:14:00 <addison> reopen 1118
15:14:54 <addison> scribe+
15:14:58 <xfq> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4986#issuecomment-1024344940
15:15:01 <addison> xfq: came up in my vacation
15:15:20 <addison> ... html folks made proposal on autocomplete
15:15:58 <addison> ... agenda+ in this or future meeting?
15:16:29 <xfq> addison: if memory serves they had some random stuff
15:16:42 <xfq> ... address format notoriously complicated
15:19:05 <addison> action: addison: remind group to follow up on html#4986
15:19:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1120 - Remind group to follow up on html#4986 [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-02-24].
15:19:14 <xfq> r12a: Do you think there is any problem, xfq?
15:19:21 <xfq> xfq: i think we discussed this before
15:19:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:19:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Radar -- taken up [from addison]
15:19:55 <xfq> xfq: I would like to check with you all if there is a problem. I personally didn't find any problems.
15:20:35 <xfq> r12a: i'll start editing the editorial guidelines
15:21:20 <xfq> ... I'm going to start (again) to create a new set of -2022 files
15:21:36 <xfq> ... that applies to new articles
15:21:50 <xfq> ... we should be able to fit it to articles we update as well
15:21:59 <xfq> addison: thank you
15:21:59 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en
15:23:10 <xfq> addison: a coworker working on Temporal saw one of our floating times articles and found it useful
15:23:20 <xfq> ... and linked to it
15:23:58 <xfq> ... I should really update the working with time zones note
15:24:19 <xfq> ... because there are changes in the world since I wrote it a lot of years ago
15:24:35 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:25:12 <xfq> addison: WoT TD, we have an agenda item for it
15:25:28 <xfq> ... SPC, we have a couple of pending issues we can review today
15:25:33 <addison> agenda?
15:25:47 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:25:47 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- In-person for TPAC? -- taken up [from addison]
15:26:02 <xfq> addison: there's a questionnaire for TPAC
15:27:03 <xfq> ... in September in Vancouver
15:27:29 <xfq> David: my feeling is hybrid is the best option
15:28:03 <xfq> r12a: for me it's a bit early to know what to do
15:28:44 <xfq> ... the flight for me is like 12 hours long
15:29:08 <xfq> David: people in some countries may not even be allowed into Canada in direct flights
15:29:16 <xfq> addison: I don't know what's gonna happen
15:29:33 <xfq> ... I
15:29:50 <xfq> s/... I/... I will reserve some space/
15:30:07 <xfq> Bert: if it's possible I'd like to go there in person
15:30:20 <addison> agenda?
15:30:34 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:30:34 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- RTL named group support in URLPattern -- taken up [from addison]
15:31:05 <xfq> https://github.com/WICG/urlpattern/issues/43
15:31:26 <xfq> addison: when they filed this request there was no spec
15:31:52 <xfq> ... in the interim year there's a spec
15:32:04 <xfq> ... I don't think we have reviewed this
15:32:35 <xfq> ... it's in a CG
15:32:58 <xfq> addison: effectively they're working with URLs
15:33:31 <xfq> ... basically regular expressions
15:33:48 <xfq> ... syntax for named groups
15:34:00 <xfq> ... in a regular expression you can assign a name to an expression
15:34:12 <xfq> ... as a way of querying with the content
15:34:23 <xfq> ... rather than replicating the expression
15:34:46 <xfq> David: rather than "it's the third collection" you can give it a name
15:35:28 <xfq> addison: a full regular expression syntax for working with URLs
15:35:39 <xfq> ... e.g., "give me the fragment"
15:35:53 <xfq> ... it's possible to screw things up
15:36:18 <xfq> ... in a text editor because of bidi effects
15:36:35 <xfq> r12a: logically speaking it's the same as in English
15:37:10 <xfq> addison: it's "code point biased"
15:37:21 <xfq> r12a: not because of it won't work
15:37:30 <xfq> ... just because you won't be able to read it
15:37:36 <xfq> addison: usability problem
15:37:56 <xfq> ... we should probably review this thing before too long
15:38:01 <addison> action: addison: add urlpattern to review (non-urgent)
15:38:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1121 - Add urlpattern to review (non-urgent) [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-02-24].
15:38:05 <addison> agenda?
15:39:53 <xfq> JcK: not everybody knows what TC 39 is
15:40:24 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:40:24 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- WOT Thing Description review -- taken up [from addison]
15:40:47 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Awot-thing-description
15:41:06 <xfq> addison: i've done the review for WoT TD
15:41:11 <xfq> ... have some pending issues
15:41:12 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1465
15:43:22 <xfq> r12a: they say if a language can be written in a few scripts
15:43:35 <xfq> ... what happens when there's no script subtag
15:44:28 <xfq> ... who's having the MUSTard?
15:45:19 <xfq> ... who would suppy that subtag?
15:45:30 <xfq> addison: whoever supply the WoT TD
15:46:28 <xfq> ... @@
15:46:45 <xfq> ... you can have a list of languages you know in a language map
15:47:27 <xfq> r12a: how would they know Azeri can be written in more than one script?
15:47:51 <xfq> addison: presumably if they are localizing their device into these languages they would know
15:48:23 <xfq> ... but we cannot guarantee
15:48:50 <xfq> ... my first comment here is that we prefer not to use heuristic
15:48:56 <xfq> ... we prefer to use metadata
15:49:12 <xfq> ... and I could make a second comment, says your heuristic is incomplete
15:49:40 <xfq> ... they didn't pick up some of the things we did with JSON-LD i18n namespace and so on
15:49:48 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1467
15:50:55 <xfq> ... and you should be aware that elsewhere they say there's no metadata, and they cite string-meta
15:51:55 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#script_subtag
15:51:58 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/lang-bidi-use-cases/
15:52:58 <xfq> r12a: we actually do recommend heuristic, but only in some cases
15:54:02 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#bp_use_heuristics_1
15:54:35 <xfq> r12a: ^ this is what we're recommending in string-meta
15:55:12 <xfq> ... in the top of the file you can say the whole file is LTR
15:55:37 <xfq> ... but it may not be availble
15:55:50 <xfq> s/availble/available/
15:57:00 <xfq> r12a: each string should be able to be accompanied by metadata, but we don't say that you have to supply metadata
15:57:08 <xfq> addison: it's about capability
15:57:51 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#bp_inferring_from_language
15:58:23 <xfq> addison: ^ this somewhat prevents that
15:59:00 <xfq> r12a: this says "don't do these guys are doing, unless it's a last resort"
15:59:15 <xfq> ... so the question is, what is the last resort?
16:00:00 <xfq> addison: I have a bunch of things that are not direction related
16:00:22 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1466
16:00:27 <xfq> ... like something replaces Unicode normalization
16:00:51 <xfq> ... #1466 should be easier
16:01:26 <xfq> ... they referred to "well-formed" language tags, but they don't bother to define "well-formed"
16:02:01 <atsushi_> +1
16:02:06 <xfq> ... we encourage specs require well-formedness and encrouage valid
16:02:17 <xfq> s/encrouage/encourage/
16:02:23 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1468
16:03:13 <xfq> addison: ^ this is about human-readable metadata
16:03:52 <xfq> ... there's no way to ascertain languages or locales that are available
16:04:26 <xfq> r12a: isn't that normal?
16:06:30 <xfq> addison: @@
16:07:00 <xfq> ... a map can be flattened, you don't need to send fr-FR, fr-BE, fr-CA, fr-CH, and you can only send fr
16:07:40 <xfq> Bert: i wonder what http say about language priority
16:09:34 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1469
16:09:35 <xfq> addison: I'll work on this before the next meeting
16:10:08 <xfq> ... Accept-Language is just an example
16:10:28 <xfq> ... I don't know how else you would negotiate language with a lamp
16:11:34 <xfq> Bert: I think I agree with you comment
16:11:36 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1470
16:12:10 <atsushi_> +1 strongly
16:12:33 <xfq> addison: somewhat meta thing, but it's really common for developers to write English as enum value
16:13:13 <xfq> ... write in uppercase, camel case, snake case, or one of the programmer cases
16:13:35 <xfq> xfq: +1
16:13:44 <xfq> JcK: it's the right thing to do
16:14:37 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1471
16:14:52 <xfq> addison: it's probably the authors know better, it's just editorial
16:16:11 <xfq> addison: we famously have RFC3987 to deal with @@
16:16:21 <xfq> ... whatwg has URL
16:17:38 <xfq> r12a: looks good to me
16:18:10 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
16:18:10 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from addison]
16:19:18 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:40:28 <addison> close action-1114
16:40:28 <trackbot> Closed action-1114.
16:40:42 <addison> close action-1113
16:40:42 <trackbot> Closed action-1113.
16:40:56 <addison> close action-1104
16:40:56 <trackbot> Closed action-1104.
16:41:19 <addison> close action-1116
16:41:19 <trackbot> Closed action-1116.
16:41:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:41:49 <addison> zakim, who is here?
16:41:49 <Zakim> Present: addison, Fuqiao, Richard, Atsushi, Erik, David, Bert, JcK
16:41:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see David, JcK, nordzilla, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, bigbluehat, cwilso, hadleybeeman, astearns, koji, sangwhan, hsivonen, Bert, atsushi_, agendabot, eemeli, Mek,
16:41:51 <Zakim> ... florian, csarven, trackbot
16:42:00 <addison> zakim, bye
16:42:00 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been addison, Fuqiao, Richard, Atsushi, Erik, David, Bert, JcK
16:42:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
17:20:49 <agendabot> agendabot has joined #i18n