11:01:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-ed
11:01:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/15-wot-ed-irc
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11:03:42 <kaz> meeting: WoT Editors
11:05:49 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot-ed
11:06:24 <mlagally> scribenick: mlagally
11:06:38 <mlagally> topic: Minutes review
11:06:47 <kaz> present+ Kaz, Ege, Toumura, Lagally, McCool, Mizushima
11:06:55 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/02/08-wot-ed-minutes.html Feb-8
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11:07:37 <mlagally> (Kaz walks through minutes)
11:08:31 <mlagally> kaz: respec issues ...
11:08:37 <mlagally> mmc: can ignore for now
11:08:50 <mlagally> (minutes approved)
11:09:16 <mlagally> topic: status of document checks
11:09:16 <kaz> topic: Document consistency status
11:09:23 <kaz> s/topic: Document consistency status//
11:09:33 <mlagally> mmc: for discovery we still finish a big PR, will go over the whole document
11:10:35 <kaz> topic: terminology
11:11:07 <mlagally> ... there's a new terminology topic - we cannot use consumer, since discovery is optional in architecture
11:11:25 <kaz> s/there/mmc: there/
11:11:48 <mlagally> ... we we are using d-client or d-consumer
11:11:55 <mlagally> ml: explorer?
11:12:00 <mlagally> mmc: already in use
11:12:32 <mlagally> kaz: we should think about 2 levels of definitions: for device layer and software layer
11:13:45 <mlagally> mmc: some confusion on devices that have multiple things
11:13:49 <mlagally> ... is node-red a consumer?
11:14:12 <mlagally> ... need a word for entities that have a network interface and are not described with a TD
11:15:13 <mlagally> ml: why not use a TD for devices with a network interface?
11:16:02 <kaz> s/software layer/software layer (i.e., real vs virtual)/
11:16:13 <mlagally> mmc: different descriptions for outgoing connections. It is redundant from a security perspective. IETF works on MUDs.
11:16:26 <mlagally> ... we could work on that in the next round.
11:16:56 <mlagally> ... a consumer reads a TD
11:17:28 <mlagally> kaz: we need to describe the two layers
11:18:04 <kaz> s/layers/layers first, and then can discuss how to deal with "producer" vs "consumer"/
11:18:15 <mlagally> mmc: we should define a device, which may have a network interaction.
11:20:20 <mlagally> ml: proposed definition: a device is a thing with a network interface
11:20:55 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-ed
11:21:12 <Ege> q+
11:21:44 <mlagally> mmc: RDF can be used to describe entities, SSN describes features of interest.
11:22:49 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
11:22:49 <Zakim> Present: Kaz, Ege, Toumura, Lagally, McCool, Mizushima
11:23:02 <mlagally> ml: these are out of the scope we describe in WoT
11:23:12 <kaz> q?
11:23:33 <mlagally> mmc: thing is used in wide sense for entities
11:23:41 <mlagally> ... we should not duplicate RDF
11:23:46 <kaz> q?
11:23:48 <kaz> ack e
11:24:06 <mlagally> ege: entities that do not have a TD, what do they have?
11:25:50 <mlagally> ... script running in a computer or browser - we can have a description format, you can start with metadata, if you describe code we go into domain specific languages.
11:25:52 <mlagally> q+
11:26:11 <mlagally> ... if we have a TD with only metadata, who consumes it?
11:26:33 <mlagally> ... I don't think we must have TDs for all entities
11:26:46 <mlagally> mmc: purpose of use cases is to narrow our scope
11:28:00 <McCool> q+
11:28:40 <mlagally> ... need to be very precise, should not extend the scope
11:29:04 <kaz> -> https://ftp.onem2m.org/work%20programme/WI-0003/Old/TS-0011-Definitions%20and%20Acronyms-V0_7_1.doc oneM2M Definitions and Acronyms
11:29:54 <McCool> (to capture my point: suggest that Things are entities described by Thing Descriptions.  Full stop.)
11:30:00 <mlagally> ml: we should not overcomplicate the discussion, not include further objects
11:30:12 <mlagally> s/objects/ontologies/
11:30:44 <kaz> q?
11:30:50 <kaz> ack ml
11:30:52 <mlagally> kaz: we should consider definition of entities
11:31:34 <kaz> s/entities/entities, and we might want to look at oneM2M's definition and borrow some concepts from that :)/
11:34:14 <kaz> q?
11:34:16 <kaz> ack mc
11:34:18 <kaz> q+
11:35:25 <mlagally> (detailed discussion about mqtt, endpoints, ...)
11:35:45 <mlagally> kaz: we should distinguish between 2 layers
11:35:57 <mlagally> mmc: agree we should use a device and application
11:36:03 <kaz> s/we should/before diving into detailed discussion about concrete definition, we should/
11:36:27 <mlagally> ml: can a TD only describe devices?
11:36:50 <mlagally> mmc: a SW service could also be a thing.
11:37:35 <mlagally> ... the word device is useful, things are more broadly
11:37:36 <kaz> s|between 2 layers|2 layers, physical and virtual. and those 2 layers should include at least device/application and Thing/Consumer.|
11:38:10 <mlagally> ... virtual thing / real things are used confusingly
11:38:25 <kaz> q?
11:38:28 <kaz> ack k
11:38:40 <mlagally> ml: changing terminology will have a lot of ripple effects
11:39:03 <kaz> q+
11:39:06 <mlagally> mmc: we should avoid inconsistencies in terms
11:39:47 <mlagally> kaz: we should start with a small set of definitions, may need to extend based on use cases
11:40:05 <McCool> q+
11:40:25 <mlagally> ... in these discussions we can define what a thing can be
11:40:35 <kaz> ack k
11:41:25 <mlagally> mmc: two definitions are lacking: device, services
11:41:45 <kaz> s/can be/can be. for example, how to handle a management Thing implemented as a software application for several physical devices./
11:41:52 <kaz> ack m
11:42:17 <mlagally> ml: can you please come up with 2 MRs for architecture?
11:47:42 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/708
11:48:36 <McCool> q+
11:49:10 <mlagally> ege: would still prefer to distinguish virtual things, digital twin is a service, shadow for a physical device
11:49:46 <mlagally> mmc: a shadow is a class of entities that simulate other things
11:49:59 <kaz> q+
11:50:02 <mlagally> ege: non-device things?
11:50:09 <kaz> ack m
11:50:46 <kaz> ack k
11:50:47 <mlagally> kaz: let's start with this model
11:51:31 <mlagally> mmc: virtual thing is a kind of service that represents another thing
11:51:40 <kaz> s/model/model and extend it based on our concrete use cases before considering theoretical variations./
11:53:31 <mlagally> ... let's also define digital twins and shadows
11:57:25 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/708#issuecomment-1040186919
12:00:13 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/709
12:00:32 <kaz> kaz: let's continue the discussion during the Architecture call
12:00:34 <kaz> [adjourned]
12:00:41 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:00:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/15-wot-ed-minutes.html kaz
12:03:05 <ktoumura> ktoumura has left #wot-ed