IRC log of pbgsc on 2022-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:55:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-irc
15:56:01 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:56:02 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:57:08 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #pbgsc
15:57:16 [Ralph]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Feb/0000.html
15:57:45 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 14 January
16:01:16 [Ralph_]
Ralph_ has joined #pbgsc
16:01:51 [Ralph_]
present+ Mateus
16:02:15 [Ralph_]
present+ Avneesh
16:02:20 [mateus]
mateus has joined #pbgsc
16:02:30 [Ralph_]
present+ Daihei
16:02:42 [mateus]
present+
16:03:19 [Ralph_]
present+ WendyReid, Liisa
16:03:53 [Ralph_]
regrets+ BIll, Zheng
16:03:57 [dauwhe]
regrets+
16:04:21 [liisamk]
liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:04:26 [liisamk]
present+
16:04:43 [Ralph_]
topic: Summary of joint meeting with the Interactive Media CG
16:05:29 [Ralph_]
Wendy: we met with this newly-formed CG, the Publishing CG, and some of the Synchronized Media CG
16:05:40 [Ralph_]
... Adam is leading the charge in the IM CG
16:05:47 [Ralph_]
... they're starting with use cases
16:06:11 [Ralph_]
... the core idea is a markup language to link together media files to stream sequentially or jointly
16:06:33 [Ralph_]
... there's interest in interactive videos; e.g. choose your adventure, educational scenarios
16:06:48 [Ralph_]
... it's meant for media in general; EPUB, SMIL, ... are part of this ecosystem
16:07:00 [Ralph_]
... it's still up in the air as to what they're aiming at
16:07:07 [Ralph_]
... it's an interesting idea
16:07:17 [Ralph_]
... TBD how much we might get involved
16:07:27 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: sounds like there's a lot of existing technology
16:07:36 [Ralph_]
... I hope they're considering what exists already
16:07:49 [Ralph_]
Wendy: yes; there is awareness of TTML, SMIL, etc.
16:08:05 [Ralph_]
... once they have more use cases it should be clear what is happening
16:08:19 [wendyreid]
Minutes from the meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/02/09-interactive-media-minutes.html
16:08:46 [Ralph_]
Ralph: is there a Publishing issue that this group might be enticed to consider?
16:09:03 [Ralph_]
Wendy: there's some talk about interactive fiction, which could be cool for future iterations
16:09:22 [Ralph_]
... but it's too early to know what they might want to achieve
16:09:41 [Daihei]
Daihei has joined #pbgsc
16:10:36 [liisamk]
q+
16:10:42 [Ralph_]
Ralph: maybe we have a use case that we would want to toss on their pile and see how much interest generates
16:10:47 [Daihei]
present+
16:10:50 [tzviya]
q+ to ask if this id RPG
16:10:53 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
16:11:05 [Ralph_]
Wendy: we don't yet have a technical problem that we can see them addressing
16:11:24 [Ralph_]
Liisa: back in 2012 there was conversation about building something in EPUB with some JS and FXL that had interactivity
16:11:35 [Ralph_]
... PRH did some children's books with animation
16:11:55 [Ralph_]
... we built out some of this in EPUB, only one reader could deal with it
16:12:08 [wolfgang]
present+ wolfgang
16:12:15 [Ralph_]
... 10 years later no one has implemented it due to concerns over JS
16:12:39 [Ralph_]
... and the limited local storage in reading systems for being able to keep things like responses to quizzes
16:12:57 [Ralph_]
... people are reluctant to go back to that until there is more interest in the market
16:13:11 [mateus]
q+
16:13:20 [Ralph_]
... publishers would like to see something come from the other direction and solve technical challenges
16:13:32 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: the concept of enhanced ebooks is separate
16:13:48 [Ralph_]
... I'm trying to understand what this CG is actually after?
16:14:13 [tzviya]
ack tz
16:14:13 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask if this id RPG
16:14:16 [tzviya]
ack ma
16:14:24 [Ralph_]
... what are the high demands from the marketplace?
16:14:43 [Ralph_]
Mateus: my publishing background has a lot of connections with education technology
16:15:07 [Ralph_]
... there are many serious hardware constraints, boundaries around scripting, what compromised we're able to make on privacy and security
16:15:31 [Ralph_]
... for publishers that control their own browser-based platform, we've been able so far to achieve what we want
16:15:47 [Ralph_]
... we can use EPUB as a shelf for our textbooks; browsers do what we want
16:16:03 [Ralph_]
... what we're missing is not the publishing spec but a standard for the interactive content
16:16:14 [Ralph_]
... not how it gets integrated into the EPUB; we have technologies for that
16:16:30 [Ralph_]
... but how do we build all our interactive widgets in a standardized way
16:16:35 [Ralph_]
... analytics, ...
16:16:45 [Ralph_]
... we use Pub Manifest to establish an internal structure
16:16:52 [wendyreid]
+1
16:16:56 [tzviya]
+1
16:17:04 [Ralph_]
... maybe we can see what happens at this fringe and document how to do it
16:17:35 [tzviya]
ack ra
16:17:35 [Zakim]
Ralph_, you wanted to thank Liisa
16:17:37 [Ralph_]
... we're deep into this world and are working on providing more interactivity to students in a low-stake way
16:18:23 [Ralph_]
s/we're/Norton is/
16:19:02 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: using something like the Manifest to make it possible to do "web publications"; making complex content available to users in a browser interface
16:19:03 [wendyreid]
q+
16:19:13 [Ralph_]
... this is both necessary for education and not yet standardized
16:19:26 [tzviya]
ack wendyreid
16:19:29 [Ralph_]
... we can think about this as a possible future direction
16:19:31 [Ralph_]
<ralph> +1
16:20:00 [Ralph_]
Wendy: there's definitely some energy in a number of places on building out data structures for content creators and user agents
16:20:34 [Ralph_]
... linear content, multiple pathways, layered video (fg/bg)
16:20:45 [Ralph_]
... this is an area we might want to lean on a bit more
16:21:11 [Ralph_]
... digital publications are probably heading there; looking more at bringing multiple media together on their particular technology stack
16:21:30 [Ralph_]
topic: Takeaways from Conference day
16:22:36 [Ralph_]
Liisa: scheduling conference days is always a challenge
16:22:54 [Ralph_]
... it took a long time firming up presenters, making sure we have enough content
16:23:07 [Ralph_]
... the agenda came out late but we ended up with more content than we could handle
16:23:11 [Ralph_]
... it was well-received
16:23:22 [Ralph_]
... the comics and manga in Europe presentation was appreciated
16:23:35 [Ralph_]
.... Daihei and Beth's presentation comparing Europe, Japan, and the US was great
16:24:06 [Ralph_]
... Daihei's team did an amazing job of taking the content from the first session and the previously-submitted content and translating it to Japanese
16:24:22 [Ralph_]
... we were able to use the video of Luc's presentation
16:24:30 [Ralph_]
... Daihei's team transcribed the whole video
16:24:42 [Ralph_]
... I was able to present Japanese slides!
16:24:52 [Ralph_]
... it worked out well, though a little crowded for time
16:25:35 [Ralph_]
... there were a lot of questions from the Japanese participants on how some of the manga content with violence and sex was handled in other parts of the world
16:25:48 [Ralph_]
... I was exhausted by the end of the day
16:25:58 [tzviya]
q+ to make a few suggestions
16:26:01 [Ralph_]
... the plan was to do this in April with a focus on education
16:26:35 [Ralph_]
... it would be good if we can get things out earlier
16:26:49 [Ralph_]
Daihei: there were 17 attendees for the North American session
16:27:21 [Ralph_]
... many people were praising the information
16:27:31 [Ralph_]
... a couple of key takeaways:
16:27:41 [Ralph_]
... it is getting to be two major issues that we need to tackle:
16:28:00 [Ralph_]
... piracy, especially in Japan, is getting overwhelming
16:28:23 [Ralph_]
... @@ is consuming 30% of the digital publishing market in Japan
16:28:40 [Ralph_]
... $4.1B in 2021, likely $5B in 2022
16:28:45 [Ralph_]
... 80% is digital manga
16:28:56 [Ralph_]
... 12% from literary / non-fiction
16:29:36 [Ralph_]
... the report I got from the industry organizations is estimating almost $4.1B in piracy
16:30:21 [Ralph_]
... so the piracy figure, which is just manga, shows there is lots of room for growth
16:30:47 [Ralph_]
... digital publishing based on EPUB is a profitable business and gaining audience
16:30:59 [Ralph_]
... piracy is also a business
16:31:11 [Ralph_]
... the issue is how to deal with piracy
16:31:34 [Ralph_]
... another issue is, outside EPUB there are other formats: a major one is WebTunes
16:31:40 [Ralph_]
... vertical scrolling comics is huge
16:31:56 [Ralph_]
... coming from Korea but expanding world-wide
16:32:11 [Ralph_]
... we may need to look into vertical scrolling, not only in EPUB but also in other web-based formats
16:32:36 [Ralph_]
... movies, TV drama, music, all going to streaming; we may need to look into more streaming services for digital pubs
16:32:46 [tzviya]
q?
16:32:47 [Ralph_]
... maybe streaming can help with the piracy issue
16:33:03 [Ralph_]
... people asked me if EPUB is a suitable format for streaming
16:33:11 [Ralph_]
... we need to look into these
16:33:31 [Ralph_]
... in April we can look into educational publishing
16:33:40 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to make a few suggestions
16:33:52 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: if we do these too often we'll get lower attendance
16:34:01 [Ralph_]
... people are tired of on-line conferences
16:34:11 [Ralph_]
... maybe do them once a quarter
16:34:40 [Ralph_]
... since the whole idea is to get community engagement, I suggest reducing the number of speakers for the 90 minutes
16:35:03 [Ralph_]
... maybe at most 3 speakers; allow a maximum of 60 minutes for the speakers
16:35:48 [zheng_xu_]
zheng_xu_ has joined #pbgsc
16:35:52 [Ralph_]
... in another successful style the organizer does a dry-run beforehand and prepares some questions to get the audience started
16:36:10 [zheng_xu_]
present+
16:36:22 [Ralph_]
... a presenter can address a question as "I've heard people ask ..." and that gets the ball rolling to get engagement
16:36:23 [Daihei]
q+
16:36:29 [tzviya]
ack dai
16:36:47 [Ralph_]
Daihei: I appreciate that advice
16:37:02 [Ralph_]
... a number of people came back to me and said that they wanted to talk more than the 90 minutes
16:37:10 [Ralph_]
... they wanted more time to ask questions
16:37:25 [Ralph_]
... it's a matter of what is satisfactory to the audience
16:37:37 [Ralph_]
... and whether the discussion can support the business
16:38:00 [Ralph_]
... for the NA/Japan session I did not hear any complaints about the length of the meeting
16:38:01 [liisamk]
q+
16:38:14 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
16:38:14 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: just make sure to leave more time for questions
16:38:21 [Ralph_]
... many people can't stay later
16:38:32 [Ralph_]
Liisa: I appreciate the advice for April
16:38:48 [Ralph_]
... this time we were in a tough spot in not having confirmation from some of the speakers even up to a day before
16:39:04 [Ralph_]
... and one of the speakers had to drop out at the last minute
16:39:15 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: just trying to give constructive feedback
16:39:20 [wendyreid]
q+
16:39:31 [Ralph_]
Liisa: should we try for April or wait to May?
16:39:39 [Ralph_]
... right now quarterly puts us on odd dates
16:39:52 [tzviya]
ack we
16:39:59 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: OK to push it off; no one says we have to have a conference day in April
16:40:09 [Ralph_]
Wendy: the chairs get to pick the schedule that works for you
16:40:14 [tzviya]
s/we have/we do not have
16:40:38 [Ralph_]
... pick what works for you and the presenters
16:41:09 [Ralph_]
Liisa: we did our best and it worked out better than we'd worried the day before
16:41:29 [Ralph_]
s/presenters/presenters; be kind to yourselves
16:41:48 [liisamk]
q+
16:41:49 [Ralph_]
Daihei: we'd like to make this work for the members and Publishing@W3C
16:41:56 [Ralph_]
... people are paying attention and want to hear more
16:42:04 [Ralph_]
... but it does require a lot of coordination
16:42:27 [Ralph_]
... my folk transcribed and translated the video in a few hours
16:42:36 [Ralph_]
<ralph> incredible!
16:42:49 [Ralph_]
... I think we did a good job
16:42:58 [tzviya]
ack li
16:43:20 [Ralph_]
Liisa: after education, the only other request for a topic we have is NFTs
16:43:34 [Ralph_]
... we have people with some very interesting use cases in Europe
16:43:50 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: it's important to entertain things that are in scope for W3C
16:43:52 [zheng_xu_]
I like talk about NFT
16:44:10 [Ralph_]
... I'm pretty certain that there would be objections to Rec-track work on NFTs
16:44:12 [zheng_xu_]
s/I like talk about NFT/I like to hear about NFT/
16:44:28 [tzviya]
ack r
16:45:47 [Ralph_]
Ralph: just because a topic might be out of scope for W3C Rec track work shouldn't stop the BG from organizing a session to learn about it
16:46:09 [Ralph_]
Daihei: it's worthwhile to share information about other things that are challenges to publishers
16:46:42 [mateus]
q+
16:46:45 [Ralph_]
Tzviya: there's a lot of confusion about what NFTs are; I'd suggest starting with an explanation of that
16:46:51 [Ralph_]
topic: Update on BG/CG joint meeting
16:47:02 [tzviya]
ack mateus
16:47:36 [Ralph_]
Mateus: we've been communicating by email; it's difficult to find a time and date that works
16:48:00 [Ralph_]
... we need to get an agenda in place
16:48:13 [Ralph_]
... I'll be optimistic and say that mid-March may work for all of us
16:48:30 [Ralph_]
Wolfgang: Zheng and I have started to develop a template for use cases
16:48:36 [Ralph_]
... we've written an explainer
16:49:18 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #pbgsc
16:49:54 [Ralph]
regrets- Zheng
16:49:54 [Ralph]
present+ Zheng
16:50:28 [Ralph]
Wolfgang: the template has a recommended format
16:51:03 [Ralph]
... to be precise about the roles, what position you have in the ecosystem
16:51:34 [Ralph]
... be specific and not have global statements about the goal
16:51:45 [Ralph]
... which role in publishing requires what functionality and what is meant by that
16:52:10 [Ralph]
... e.g. people say "I want a big battery for my electric car" but really they want to be able to drive a long distance
16:52:50 [tzviya]
https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/pull/25
16:52:57 [tzviya]
q?
16:53:02 [Ralph]
Tzviya: maybe move the sample text to the top and the directions below so people who don't need the directions can just fill-in the text
16:53:06 [liisamk]
q+
16:53:11 [avneeshsingh]
avneeshsingh has joined #pbgsc
16:53:17 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
16:53:21 [zheng_xu_]
q+
16:53:26 [avneeshsingh]
present+
16:53:39 [Ralph]
Liisa: this is really good for forward-thinking and trying to come up with something that doesn't currently exist
16:53:58 [Ralph]
... how do we deal with things that are currently issues or that people don't know are currently issues?
16:54:41 [Ralph]
... e.g. dealing with complicated tables and controlling column widths but not realizing that there is a fine line of what you can control across various reading systems that won't be chewed up in production systems
16:54:51 [Ralph]
Tzviya: you've explained an implementation
16:55:05 [Ralph]
... "as a reader on a mobile reader, I would like to be able to view large tables"
16:55:27 [Ralph]
... you know the problems in implementation; you have additional information about how RS behave
16:55:39 [Ralph]
... you can add notes to that effect
16:55:54 [Ralph]
.. .but the user description is "I like to see the full width of the table"
16:56:04 [Ralph]
... or "I want to be able to view the table"
16:56:17 [Ralph]
... we're just defining the problem in the use case and not the solution
16:56:27 [tzviya]
ack zh
16:56:34 [Ralph]
... we're writing about the specifications and not necessarily the implementations
16:56:48 [Ralph]
Zheng: the use cases are not only for future needs
16:56:56 [Ralph]
... we can create use cases for current needs
16:57:17 [Ralph]
... the format can work for both
16:57:25 [Ralph]
... try it out
16:57:38 [Ralph]
... I just found out some interesting things about media overlay; I might try that first
16:57:47 [Ralph]
Tzviya: it's mean to be a low barrier for documentation
16:58:23 [tzviya]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/tpac2022-fall-meetings/
17:00:14 [Ralph]
topic: Heads-up on TPAC survey
17:00:48 [Ralph]
Ralph: please have conversations in your groups and give us your best guesses as to whether you might have critical mass for an in-person component along with remote participation
17:00:59 [Ralph]
... we need to make a go/no-go decision the first week of April
17:01:15 [Ralph]
... we know you won't have perfect information; please give us the best you can
17:02:01 [Ralph]
... we're unlikely to be able to accomodate CGs but if there's a lot of interest in in-person I'd still like to know
17:02:05 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
17:02:10 [Ralph]
zakim, end meeting
17:02:10 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mateus, Avneesh, Daihei, WendyReid, Liisa, liisamk, wolfgang, zheng_xu_, avneeshsingh
17:02:12 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:02:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:02:15 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:02:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:07:51 [Ralph]
present+ Tzviya, Ralph
17:07:54 [Ralph]
chair: Tzviya
17:08:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph