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16:50:27 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:50:35 <janina> date: 10 feb 2022
16:50:39 <janina> chair: janina
16:50:45 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:50:49 <janina> agenda?
16:51:08 <janina> regrets: Todd_Libby
16:52:35 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:52:35 <janina> agenda+ User Scenarios: Additional Considerations
16:52:35 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:52:35 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
16:52:37 <janina> 
16:59:13 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
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16:59:54 <janina> present+
17:00:03 <GreggVan> present+
17:00:27 <shadi> present+
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17:02:01 <PeterKorn> present+
17:02:33 <DarrylLehmann> present+
17:02:38 <MichaelC> present+
17:03:11 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
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17:03:33 <Azlan> present+
17:03:38 <Wilco> present+
17:03:41 <Wilco> scribe: Wilco
17:03:50 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:03:50 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:04:16 <Wilco> Janina: Had some additional comments, some from me, some from Jeanne.
17:04:24 <Wilco> ... Thanks to Shadi for helping to put them in.
17:05:00 <Wilco> ... TPAC planning continues. We'll start asking who might be there in person.
17:06:09 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:06:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- User Scenarios: Additional Considerations -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:19 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Talk:Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
17:07:25 <Wilco> Shadi: I dropped a summary of the comments in the talk page
17:07:44 <Wilco> ... Going to situation 9 heading
17:07:54 <Wilco> ... Would suggest lack of AT support should factor in.
17:08:25 <Wilco> ... Two example, one on limited support for accessibility; immersive environments.
17:08:48 <Wilco> ... 9.2 talks about experiences that can not easily be translated.
17:09:13 <Wilco> ... I'd like to suggest a 9.3 highlighting the lack of accessibility support
17:09:35 <Wilco> ... Graphs, there isn't really a way to visualise that.
17:10:06 <Wilco> ... There could also be something like music, where music notes and words are side by side that is not easily rendered by AT.
17:10:21 <PeterKorn> Would we want to use the phrase "Accessibility Supported" for this/these scenarios?
17:10:45 <DarrylLehmann> +1 Janina and Shadi example addition
17:10:47 <Wilco> ... Question to the group is do we add such example?
17:11:02 <Wilco> q+
17:11:07 <Wilco> q-
17:11:08 <janina> q+
17:11:18 <DarrylLehmann> q+
17:11:28 <Wilco> Shadi: We'd have to phrase that carefully, accessibility support related to technology.
17:11:48 <Wilco> Janina: little nervous about accessibility support. It may get controversial. I'd rather phrase it another way.
17:12:28 <Wilco> ... If we get a standard for doing something. The process is usually we get a spec, and then over time we get AT support for that.
17:13:29 <Wilco> Darryl: Another example is WebGL, online 3D. There is basically no support.
17:13:56 <Wilco> ... There was a 3D model online which had labels, we replicated that with a 3D printed model with braille
17:14:19 <Wilco> Janina: The only place we have accessibility support built into graphics is SVG 2
17:14:26 <shadi> queue=
17:14:56 <Wilco> Gregg: If you had graphs with lines, would it be more useful to have a table?
17:15:14 <Azlan> q+
17:15:16 <Wilco> ... We have the ability to take a picture of a chart and give a table with the data.
17:16:31 <Azlan> q-
17:16:36 <Wilco> Janina: Tables if you concentrate well you can get the picture, but there's a reason for charts.
17:16:47 <PeterKorn> [I need to step away; be right back]
17:16:48 <Wilco> ... Things communicate more quickly
17:17:00 <Wilco> Gregg: I would suggest diagram of a heart, instead of lines on a graph.
17:17:08 <Wilco> Shadi: Sounds good
17:18:55 <Wilco> Shadi: Janina mentions an APA note on how to approach real-time calls. I had further discussions on that.
17:19:19 <PeterKorn> [I'm back]
17:19:52 <Wilco> ... WCAG 2 already has different requirements for live vs prerecorded media. One of the things Janina raises is synchronisation of captions, and the transition from live to prerecorded.
17:20:21 <Wilco> ... Suggestion is to add this to the guidance section.
17:21:22 <Wilco> Gregg: There's a task force looking at real-time text in ISO, which could have impact.
17:21:36 <janina> q+
17:21:36 <Wilco> ... I don't think we want to add requirements, but we could have examples.
17:21:48 <Wilco> ... For example you can have word by word live captions.
17:22:05 <Wilco> ... There is also caption synchronisation software.
17:22:46 <Wilco> ... In life captions is behind as you won't know what someone will say, but after it should be put in sync.
17:22:58 <shadi> ack jan
17:23:23 <Wilco> Janina: We've been living this. Many things happen on Zoom, but then are put on YouTube hours later.
17:23:47 <Wilco> .. We can leave it to policy how much someone needs to do.
17:24:12 <Wilco> Gregg: If we can put tools in the understanding docs so people can find them.
17:24:25 <Wilco> ... Saying they exist doesn't help, putting a link does.
17:25:29 <Wilco> Shadi: Hearing agreement
17:26:07 <Wilco> ... The next item is on situation 2. There is a new bullet from Janina.
17:27:17 <Wilco> ... It occurred to me that maybe framing, the question is does all content need to be accessible.
17:27:33 <Wilco> ... There is an upon request, but there is also content that is not essential.
17:27:43 <Wilco> q+ Gregg
17:28:11 <Wilco> ... It's not about relevance. It's under which condition can you say pieces will not follow all the requirements.
17:28:13 <janina> q+
17:28:20 <Wilco> ... There is a role for policy here.
17:28:24 <Wilco> ack g
17:28:51 <Wilco> Gregg: If it's important enough to post it for anybody, it shouldn't be not important for some people.
17:29:27 <PeterKorn> q+
17:29:52 <Wilco> ... If you have a huge archive, what we'll do if we need it we'll be responsive, I hate for us to say some things don't need to be accessible because they're not used much.
17:30:27 <Wilco> ... I'd rather we make a comment on policy.
17:31:03 <Wilco> Shadi: Some content won't have the highest priority. It's being phrased as relevant.
17:31:34 <Wilco> ack j
17:32:02 <Wilco> Janina: We should not perpetuate the assumption that we'll do everything for all content. It gets in the way.
17:32:43 <Wilco> ... This is about prioritisation. You should be able to do it.
17:32:46 <PeterKorn> ack
17:32:49 <PeterKorn> ack pko
17:32:53 <PeterKorn> q-
17:33:22 <Wilco> Shadi: I'll go forward and rephrase that in terms of priority.
17:34:14 <Wilco> Shadi: Under the heading Overall comments. Jeanne and I feel we need another section.
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17:34:35 <PeterKorn> q
17:34:36 <PeterKorn> q+
17:34:47 <Wilco> ... The key datapoint is that 98% have fewer than 100 employees. There was more in the comment here. From that I have a few suggestions.
17:34:50 <maryjom_> present+
17:35:17 <PeterKorn> q-
17:35:24 <Wilco> Peter: We have examples of this in the US today. We might note that this has already been done in accessibility laws
17:36:08 <janina> q+
17:36:35 <PeterKorn> No objection; I think it makes a lot of sense - especially because this is already practice
17:36:38 <Wilco> Shadi: Also in EU legislation, EAA exempts micro organisations. Still is there any downside, would anybody object to a situation of a small business who have difficulty finding the right professionals, tooling, knowledge.
17:36:39 <Wilco> +1
17:37:08 <Wilco> Janina: I think the concern to consider, are we saying enough that a small business is likely to rely on a scripted website provider.
17:37:21 <Wilco> ... Are these number big enough that we need to say more?
17:37:52 <Wilco> ... We've covered a lot of user generated, but third-party HTML / CSS. Apparently that's been on a rapid rise.
17:38:39 <PeterKorn> q?
17:38:50 <DarrylLehmann> q+
17:39:16 <Wilco> Shadi: This is the first of several additions to address small business. This particular suggestion on situation 11.
17:39:17 <shadi> ack janina
17:40:04 <Wilco> ... I want to mention that policy makers should consider the size and capability of the content provider.
17:40:29 <Wilco> ... It's one thing to say for a small shop that they can't make all images accessible. That's a policy question.
17:40:49 <Wilco> ... Policies will now exempt small businesses, and sometimes have reasonability concepts built in.
17:41:24 <Wilco> Darryl: I agree adding this example is useful. Just the fact that there is a lack in the space to creating accessible content.
17:41:39 <Wilco> ... Companies should find good specialists, that'd kind of the problem as well.
17:42:26 <janina> https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/third-parties
17:42:44 <Wilco> Shadi: There is a strong dependance on tools. In 4.1 we have an example; website that allows users to create their own website. It's written from the perspective of the tool provider.
17:43:29 <Wilco> ... The suggestion is to create a similar example under 5; I created a website using a tool that creates websites. That tool has limitations and I'm dependant on what that tool can provide.
17:43:36 <Wilco> +1
17:43:43 <maryjom_> +1
17:43:51 <Azlan> +1
17:44:09 <Wilco> Shadi: No objections; I'll get that drafted.
17:44:36 <Wilco> ... Following that we can add guidance around selecting appropriate tools.
17:44:58 <Wilco> ... EO is working on a list of authoring tools supporting accessibility.
17:46:29 <Azlan> q+
17:47:06 <DarrylLehmann> q-
17:47:16 <Wilco> Janina: There's an implicit guarantee, if you get in trouble over not being accessible. You should be able to duck out of it.
17:47:41 <Wilco> Peter: We have two proofs in this space, architects in the ADA, and now web business that promise overlays fix problems.
17:47:57 <Wilco> ... I would not go down this road other than to say this is all about policy.
17:48:16 <Wilco> ... This can suck our time.
17:48:28 <Wilco> Shadi: If we can phrase this as a consideration rather than a solution?
17:49:23 <janina> q+
17:49:23 <Wilco> Azlan: It's quite the can of worms. One thing I've been working on is an authoring tool. Needing to provide enough tooling for someone to create whatever they want. I don't want to be too restrictive, but still protect them from causing issues.
17:49:33 <Wilco> ... Where do you draw the line of who's responsible?
17:49:42 <shadi> ack azlan
17:49:53 <Wilco> Janina: I think this would be a win if we get this in appropriately.
17:50:10 <shadi> ack jan
17:50:37 <Wilco> Gregg: I think we should say people need to put it in the contract. If you don't put it in the contract, you can't get out of it.
17:51:08 <Wilco> Janina: I'm not sure that's true. They may not know they need to think about it.
17:51:29 <Wilco> Gregg: That's why we need to tell people to put it in their contract, and that they have it checked.
17:51:49 <PeterKorn> q?
17:52:46 <Wilco> Shadi: I'll see what I can do with that. I'm hearing we don't want to get into detailed solutions, but maybe there's something on considerations for tool providers.
17:54:28 <Wilco> ... We have situation 6. Janina has a point where she says we need to be clear that bugs do happen, so that we make a strong case. There's no bug-free software.
17:54:45 <PeterKorn> q?
17:55:10 <Wilco> Peter: I wonder if we can say something between "will" and "can". Virtually all software has bugs.
17:55:56 <Wilco> Janina: I'd love to see us cite some things.
17:56:24 <maryjom_> https://www.mayerdan.com/ruby/2012/11/11/bugs-per-line-of-code-ratio
17:57:57 <Wilco> Shadi: Situation 5 is on dependencies on other services. There's maybe more interlinking between sites than people think.
17:58:16 <Wilco> ... We didn't have any specific suggestion / conclusion. Maybe we can get back to it next week.
17:58:17 <janina> https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/third-parties
17:59:11 <Wilco> Janina: I think we need to be comprehensive when we return with third-party to AGWG. We have a good start, but there is a lot more going on, but someone has to be responsible.
17:59:40 <Wilco> ... It goes a lot further than I had realised. Hopefully we can think more globally on how to draw lines.
18:00:58 <Wilco> zakim, end meeting
18:00:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, GreggVan, shadi, PeterKorn, DarrylLehmann, MichaelC, Azlan, Wilco, maryjom_
18:01:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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