IRC log of silver-conf on 2022-02-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:50:02 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-silver-conf-irc
- 16:50:27 [janina]
- Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
- 16:50:35 [janina]
- date: 10 feb 2022
- 16:50:39 [janina]
- chair: janina
- 16:50:45 [janina]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 16:50:49 [janina]
- agenda?
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- regrets: Todd_Libby
- 16:52:35 [janina]
- Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
- 16:52:35 [janina]
- agenda+ User Scenarios: Additional Considerations
- 16:52:35 [janina]
- agenda+ Other Business
- 16:52:35 [janina]
- agenda+ Be Done
- 16:52:37 [janina]
- 16:59:13 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:59:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
- 16:59:37 [shadi]
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- 16:59:54 [janina]
- present+
- 17:00:03 [GreggVan]
- present+
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- present+
- 17:01:23 [DarrylLehmann]
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- 17:01:46 [PeterKorn]
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- 17:02:01 [PeterKorn]
- present+
- 17:02:33 [DarrylLehmann]
- present+
- 17:02:38 [MichaelC]
- present+
- 17:03:11 [Wilco]
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- 17:03:20 [Azlan]
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- present+
- 17:03:38 [Wilco]
- present+
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- scribe: Wilco
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- zakim, take up next
- 17:03:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
- 17:04:16 [Wilco]
- Janina: Had some additional comments, some from me, some from Jeanne.
- 17:04:24 [Wilco]
- ... Thanks to Shadi for helping to put them in.
- 17:05:00 [Wilco]
- ... TPAC planning continues. We'll start asking who might be there in person.
- 17:06:09 [Wilco]
- zakim, take up next
- 17:06:09 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- User Scenarios: Additional Considerations -- taken up [from janina]
- 17:07:19 [shadi]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Talk:Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
- 17:07:25 [Wilco]
- Shadi: I dropped a summary of the comments in the talk page
- 17:07:44 [Wilco]
- ... Going to situation 9 heading
- 17:07:54 [Wilco]
- ... Would suggest lack of AT support should factor in.
- 17:08:25 [Wilco]
- ... Two example, one on limited support for accessibility; immersive environments.
- 17:08:48 [Wilco]
- ... 9.2 talks about experiences that can not easily be translated.
- 17:09:13 [Wilco]
- ... I'd like to suggest a 9.3 highlighting the lack of accessibility support
- 17:09:35 [Wilco]
- ... Graphs, there isn't really a way to visualise that.
- 17:10:06 [Wilco]
- ... There could also be something like music, where music notes and words are side by side that is not easily rendered by AT.
- 17:10:21 [PeterKorn]
- Would we want to use the phrase "Accessibility Supported" for this/these scenarios?
- 17:10:45 [DarrylLehmann]
- +1 Janina and Shadi example addition
- 17:10:47 [Wilco]
- ... Question to the group is do we add such example?
- 17:11:02 [Wilco]
- q+
- 17:11:07 [Wilco]
- q-
- 17:11:08 [janina]
- q+
- 17:11:18 [DarrylLehmann]
- q+
- 17:11:28 [Wilco]
- Shadi: We'd have to phrase that carefully, accessibility support related to technology.
- 17:11:48 [Wilco]
- Janina: little nervous about accessibility support. It may get controversial. I'd rather phrase it another way.
- 17:12:28 [Wilco]
- ... If we get a standard for doing something. The process is usually we get a spec, and then over time we get AT support for that.
- 17:13:29 [Wilco]
- Darryl: Another example is WebGL, online 3D. There is basically no support.
- 17:13:56 [Wilco]
- ... There was a 3D model online which had labels, we replicated that with a 3D printed model with braille
- 17:14:19 [Wilco]
- Janina: The only place we have accessibility support built into graphics is SVG 2
- 17:14:26 [shadi]
- queue=
- 17:14:56 [Wilco]
- Gregg: If you had graphs with lines, would it be more useful to have a table?
- 17:15:14 [Azlan]
- q+
- 17:15:16 [Wilco]
- ... We have the ability to take a picture of a chart and give a table with the data.
- 17:16:31 [Azlan]
- q-
- 17:16:36 [Wilco]
- Janina: Tables if you concentrate well you can get the picture, but there's a reason for charts.
- 17:16:47 [PeterKorn]
- [I need to step away; be right back]
- 17:16:48 [Wilco]
- ... Things communicate more quickly
- 17:17:00 [Wilco]
- Gregg: I would suggest diagram of a heart, instead of lines on a graph.
- 17:17:08 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Sounds good
- 17:18:55 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Janina mentions an APA note on how to approach real-time calls. I had further discussions on that.
- 17:19:19 [PeterKorn]
- [I'm back]
- 17:19:52 [Wilco]
- ... WCAG 2 already has different requirements for live vs prerecorded media. One of the things Janina raises is synchronisation of captions, and the transition from live to prerecorded.
- 17:20:21 [Wilco]
- ... Suggestion is to add this to the guidance section.
- 17:21:22 [Wilco]
- Gregg: There's a task force looking at real-time text in ISO, which could have impact.
- 17:21:36 [janina]
- q+
- 17:21:36 [Wilco]
- ... I don't think we want to add requirements, but we could have examples.
- 17:21:48 [Wilco]
- ... For example you can have word by word live captions.
- 17:22:05 [Wilco]
- ... There is also caption synchronisation software.
- 17:22:46 [Wilco]
- ... In life captions is behind as you won't know what someone will say, but after it should be put in sync.
- 17:22:58 [shadi]
- ack jan
- 17:23:23 [Wilco]
- Janina: We've been living this. Many things happen on Zoom, but then are put on YouTube hours later.
- 17:23:47 [Wilco]
- .. We can leave it to policy how much someone needs to do.
- 17:24:12 [Wilco]
- Gregg: If we can put tools in the understanding docs so people can find them.
- 17:24:25 [Wilco]
- ... Saying they exist doesn't help, putting a link does.
- 17:25:29 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Hearing agreement
- 17:26:07 [Wilco]
- ... The next item is on situation 2. There is a new bullet from Janina.
- 17:27:17 [Wilco]
- ... It occurred to me that maybe framing, the question is does all content need to be accessible.
- 17:27:33 [Wilco]
- ... There is an upon request, but there is also content that is not essential.
- 17:27:43 [Wilco]
- q+ Gregg
- 17:28:11 [Wilco]
- ... It's not about relevance. It's under which condition can you say pieces will not follow all the requirements.
- 17:28:13 [janina]
- q+
- 17:28:20 [Wilco]
- ... There is a role for policy here.
- 17:28:24 [Wilco]
- ack g
- 17:28:51 [Wilco]
- Gregg: If it's important enough to post it for anybody, it shouldn't be not important for some people.
- 17:29:27 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:29:52 [Wilco]
- ... If you have a huge archive, what we'll do if we need it we'll be responsive, I hate for us to say some things don't need to be accessible because they're not used much.
- 17:30:27 [Wilco]
- ... I'd rather we make a comment on policy.
- 17:31:03 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Some content won't have the highest priority. It's being phrased as relevant.
- 17:31:34 [Wilco]
- ack j
- 17:32:02 [Wilco]
- Janina: We should not perpetuate the assumption that we'll do everything for all content. It gets in the way.
- 17:32:43 [Wilco]
- ... This is about prioritisation. You should be able to do it.
- 17:32:46 [PeterKorn]
- ack
- 17:32:49 [PeterKorn]
- ack pko
- 17:32:53 [PeterKorn]
- q-
- 17:33:22 [Wilco]
- Shadi: I'll go forward and rephrase that in terms of priority.
- 17:34:14 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Under the heading Overall comments. Jeanne and I feel we need another section.
- 17:34:28 [maryjom_]
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- 17:34:35 [PeterKorn]
- q
- 17:34:36 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 17:34:47 [Wilco]
- ... The key datapoint is that 98% have fewer than 100 employees. There was more in the comment here. From that I have a few suggestions.
- 17:34:50 [maryjom_]
- present+
- 17:35:17 [PeterKorn]
- q-
- 17:35:24 [Wilco]
- Peter: We have examples of this in the US today. We might note that this has already been done in accessibility laws
- 17:36:08 [janina]
- q+
- 17:36:35 [PeterKorn]
- No objection; I think it makes a lot of sense - especially because this is already practice
- 17:36:38 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Also in EU legislation, EAA exempts micro organisations. Still is there any downside, would anybody object to a situation of a small business who have difficulty finding the right professionals, tooling, knowledge.
- 17:36:39 [Wilco]
- +1
- 17:37:08 [Wilco]
- Janina: I think the concern to consider, are we saying enough that a small business is likely to rely on a scripted website provider.
- 17:37:21 [Wilco]
- ... Are these number big enough that we need to say more?
- 17:37:52 [Wilco]
- ... We've covered a lot of user generated, but third-party HTML / CSS. Apparently that's been on a rapid rise.
- 17:38:39 [PeterKorn]
- q?
- 17:38:50 [DarrylLehmann]
- q+
- 17:39:16 [Wilco]
- Shadi: This is the first of several additions to address small business. This particular suggestion on situation 11.
- 17:39:17 [shadi]
- ack janina
- 17:40:04 [Wilco]
- ... I want to mention that policy makers should consider the size and capability of the content provider.
- 17:40:29 [Wilco]
- ... It's one thing to say for a small shop that they can't make all images accessible. That's a policy question.
- 17:40:49 [Wilco]
- ... Policies will now exempt small businesses, and sometimes have reasonability concepts built in.
- 17:41:24 [Wilco]
- Darryl: I agree adding this example is useful. Just the fact that there is a lack in the space to creating accessible content.
- 17:41:39 [Wilco]
- ... Companies should find good specialists, that'd kind of the problem as well.
- 17:42:26 [janina]
- https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/third-parties
- 17:42:44 [Wilco]
- Shadi: There is a strong dependance on tools. In 4.1 we have an example; website that allows users to create their own website. It's written from the perspective of the tool provider.
- 17:43:29 [Wilco]
- ... The suggestion is to create a similar example under 5; I created a website using a tool that creates websites. That tool has limitations and I'm dependant on what that tool can provide.
- 17:43:36 [Wilco]
- +1
- 17:43:43 [maryjom_]
- +1
- 17:43:51 [Azlan]
- +1
- 17:44:09 [Wilco]
- Shadi: No objections; I'll get that drafted.
- 17:44:36 [Wilco]
- ... Following that we can add guidance around selecting appropriate tools.
- 17:44:58 [Wilco]
- ... EO is working on a list of authoring tools supporting accessibility.
- 17:46:29 [Azlan]
- q+
- 17:47:06 [DarrylLehmann]
- q-
- 17:47:16 [Wilco]
- Janina: There's an implicit guarantee, if you get in trouble over not being accessible. You should be able to duck out of it.
- 17:47:41 [Wilco]
- Peter: We have two proofs in this space, architects in the ADA, and now web business that promise overlays fix problems.
- 17:47:57 [Wilco]
- ... I would not go down this road other than to say this is all about policy.
- 17:48:16 [Wilco]
- ... This can suck our time.
- 17:48:28 [Wilco]
- Shadi: If we can phrase this as a consideration rather than a solution?
- 17:49:23 [janina]
- q+
- 17:49:23 [Wilco]
- Azlan: It's quite the can of worms. One thing I've been working on is an authoring tool. Needing to provide enough tooling for someone to create whatever they want. I don't want to be too restrictive, but still protect them from causing issues.
- 17:49:33 [Wilco]
- ... Where do you draw the line of who's responsible?
- 17:49:42 [shadi]
- ack azlan
- 17:49:53 [Wilco]
- Janina: I think this would be a win if we get this in appropriately.
- 17:50:10 [shadi]
- ack jan
- 17:50:37 [Wilco]
- Gregg: I think we should say people need to put it in the contract. If you don't put it in the contract, you can't get out of it.
- 17:51:08 [Wilco]
- Janina: I'm not sure that's true. They may not know they need to think about it.
- 17:51:29 [Wilco]
- Gregg: That's why we need to tell people to put it in their contract, and that they have it checked.
- 17:51:49 [PeterKorn]
- q?
- 17:52:46 [Wilco]
- Shadi: I'll see what I can do with that. I'm hearing we don't want to get into detailed solutions, but maybe there's something on considerations for tool providers.
- 17:54:28 [Wilco]
- ... We have situation 6. Janina has a point where she says we need to be clear that bugs do happen, so that we make a strong case. There's no bug-free software.
- 17:54:45 [PeterKorn]
- q?
- 17:55:10 [Wilco]
- Peter: I wonder if we can say something between "will" and "can". Virtually all software has bugs.
- 17:55:56 [Wilco]
- Janina: I'd love to see us cite some things.
- 17:56:24 [maryjom_]
- https://www.mayerdan.com/ruby/2012/11/11/bugs-per-line-of-code-ratio
- 17:57:57 [Wilco]
- Shadi: Situation 5 is on dependencies on other services. There's maybe more interlinking between sites than people think.
- 17:58:16 [Wilco]
- ... We didn't have any specific suggestion / conclusion. Maybe we can get back to it next week.
- 17:58:17 [janina]
- https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/third-parties
- 17:59:11 [Wilco]
- Janina: I think we need to be comprehensive when we return with third-party to AGWG. We have a good start, but there is a lot more going on, but someone has to be responsible.
- 17:59:40 [Wilco]
- ... It goes a lot further than I had realised. Hopefully we can think more globally on how to draw lines.
- 18:00:58 [Wilco]
- zakim, end meeting
- 18:00:58 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been janina, GreggVan, shadi, PeterKorn, DarrylLehmann, MichaelC, Azlan, Wilco, maryjom_
- 18:01:00 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 18:01:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
- 18:01:03 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 18:01:08 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #silver-conf