19:00:04 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 19:00:04 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/08-aria-apg-irc 19:00:17 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 19:00:34 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 19:00:49 CHAIR: Matt King 19:01:01 rrsagent, make log public 19:01:06 present+ 19:01:12 rrsagent, make minutes 19:01:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 19:01:49 present+ 19:01:52 sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg 19:02:03 present+ 19:03:08 erika has joined #aria-apg 19:03:36 present+ 19:04:09 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 19:04:22 present+ 19:04:27 scribe: sarah_higley 19:04:54 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 19:05:04 present+ 19:05:22 agenda? 19:05:33 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 19:05:42 Matt: does anyone have any additions for the agenda? 19:05:43 present+ 19:05:45 present+ 19:06:00 ST: I have some questions about a blocker for Bocoup on the redesign 19:06:09 Matt: that fits into an existing topic, let's talk about it then 19:06:15 TOPIC: APG Issue Triage 19:06:50 MK: Jemma and I are looking at existing issues, but also adjusting the query to go further back in time. By the end of the year, maybe we'll eat through a portion of the giant backlock 19:07:01 s/backlock/backlog 19:07:16 MK: the first one, the datepicker dialog uses aria-modal without making the rest of the page unavailable 19:07:29 issue link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2219 19:08:35 SH: I think this is a disconnect between what aria-modal should do and what it does. 19:08:56 JN: it looks like the base page isn't inert, I can click through to the page. So it looks like it shouldn't be inert. 19:09:04 MK: normally a datepicker wouldn't make a page inert, right? 19:09:11 JN: right, not normally. They're semi-modal in some ways 19:09:43 SH: normally when I've done this, it's been because the popup is at the end of the DOM, but I don't think that's the case here? 19:10:13 MK: I think this deserves some discussion, because this might legitimately be a non-modal dialog. There might not be a use where you need to move back and forth with the page... I think this deserves a bit of discussion 19:10:20 MK: I'm going to add the agenda label 19:11:20 siri has joined #aria-apg 19:12:26 MK: next, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2165 19:12:52 SH: from comments, it looks like this was resolved and we can close? 19:12:57 MK: let's do that, I'll mark it closed 19:13:20 MK: next, fieldset button issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2160 19:14:07 SH: am I remembering right that Scott was doing some work to make figcaption not participate in the accname for figure? 19:14:17 JN: it's going to be related by details 19:14:26 MK: I think the point of this example is to use figcaption 19:14:57 SH: I think if figcaption no longer named figure, this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore, and we could use figcaption 19:14:59 JN: correct 19:15:12 MK: I think one of the reasons we made it this way was because we wanted to test figcaption 19:15:33 JN: OK, but that's different from the figcaption, the disclosure is the... 19:15:52 JN: is the button, which is a child, and then that has just a controls relationship. I don't understand why that would 19:16:04 MK: yeah, that button should just say data table for chart 19:16:10 MK: but it's reading the whole thing 19:16:14 JN: that sounds like a JAWS bug 19:16:40 JN: I don't understand why it would be reading the parent element when you focus on a button. That's just bizarre 19:17:22 MK: you know how JAWS will read the name of a container when you tab in? I think that's what's happening 19:17:29 MK: if we did fix the bug Sarah was talking about 19:17:40 JN: or if Chrome fixes their bug so they don't name the figure by the figcaption 19:17:48 JN: currently the figure has the accname of the long text 19:18:06 MK: so there's two questionable behaviors. One is whether JAWS should read the container label, and the other one is the Chrome behavior 19:18:29 MK: is anybody willing to take on responding to David here? 19:19:16 JN: should I put a link to the HTML AAM issue in? 19:19:22 MK: yeah, that would be great. In the issue? 19:19:24 JN: yeah 19:19:29 MK: that would be great 19:20:10 Siri: I had a question. If it has a figcaption, if you use an img the alt can be empty because figcaption is providing a description. So if you're removing figcaption from the description, how do screen readers know? 19:20:27 Siri: I thought the purpose of figcaption is if you provide a caption below the image, it can be treated as a description for the image 19:20:40 MK: yeah, a detail-structured description, not a name 19:20:48 JN: not even a description, because it often includes structure 19:21:09 MK: yeah, not even a description. Details, which I consider another form of description, which we don't include in the name and description calculation 19:21:20 MK: is there anybody that I could assign this to? 19:21:57 MK: assigning myself 19:22:37 MK: ok, going to overly verbose permalinks. We've closed this -- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2159 19:22:45 MK: I'm just going to close it 19:23:13 MK: next, hybrid navigation: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2152 19:23:26 MK: What is hybrid navigation? I don't understand the title of this issue 19:23:51 MK: oh, is this the disclosure navigations that you worked on, Sarah? 19:23:54 https://www.scottohara.me/blog/2019/01/21/how-do-you-figure.html 19:23:58 SH: I think so 19:24:08 MK: this is the one with top-level links 19:24:32 From scott's blog:A figcaption provides a caption, or summary, to the content the figure contains. The figcaption should become the accessible name to the figure element, unless an aria-label or aria-labelledby attribute are used on the figure instead. The figcaption may be placed before or after the primary contents of the figure, however it must be a direct child of the figure element. 19:24:44 MK: his first suggestion is adding the menu opening on hover. We talked about this, didn't we say we didn't want to do that explicitly? 19:25:03 MK: a version where the down arrow isn't visible except on keyboard focus, and an example with both those features 19:25:17 MK: does this need further discussion? Is this stuff we want to consider? 19:26:06 MM: I'd be in favor of not doing that. I think the version where the down arrow is only visible on focus -- I'd rather have everything the menu can do be visible on the outset, so you don't have to poke around and try to find what it can do 19:26:22 MK: often when we don't do things that are out in the wild, it's because we don't think it'll help accessibility 19:26:47 MK: my first thought is if we do this, will it cause any WCAG failure? I don't think the hover one would, I don't know what to think of that so I'll let you mouse people offer opinions 19:27:06 MK: I think one of the reasons we talked about not doing hover is because we talked about screen magnifiers so you shouldn't do any hover until you at least do one click 19:27:53 MM: and that's a better way to do it (only on click). The ones I've seen where it does expand on hover, it's not obvious that the top-level link is clickable. So if we do that, we want to make sure that the top-level link can obviously be clicked, but I don't like htem as a sighted sometimes-mouse user 19:28:14 JN: I'm of the opinion that there are an infinite number of variants that any of these can do, and we shouldn't attempt to do all of those variants 19:29:21 MM: I feel like this is one of those things where someone says "look at this company, they do it!" and it's not always the best example. I don't know if we should be supporting that necessarily 19:29:57 MK: so I guess a thoughtful response here, we could just use the justification you said James. If we wouldn't do these things for a11y reasons, I want to state that in our response 19:30:35 MK: I don't know if I can come up with that myself. I don't know if we need some agenda time to talk about it more. We'll get an infiinte supply of feedback over time 19:31:21 JN: for any of these, if anyone wants to supply a well-formed completed PR that we can tweak, that's fine. But if someone's just going to ask if we can do this, this, etc. we have so many things to do that we can't do all these tweaks to stuff when we have plenty that isn't covered at all 19:31:28 MK: I'm going to assign myself and write a response 19:31:41 TOPIC: Open Pull Requests 19:31:56 MK: tabs examples, I didn't make any progress with that this week, had a chrome bug 19:32:05 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2194 19:32:13 MK: I want to bring up the accordion PR to ask you, Sarah 19:32:19 MK: we were making progress on this PR prior to publication 19:32:29 MK: then we didn't quite finish, and I don't remember all the reasons here 19:32:40 MK: don't have all the reviews, I can see 19:32:48 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1834 19:33:31 SH: from what I remember, everything that's been commented has been addressed 19:33:48 MK: so we should be able to move this forward. Siri you're assigned to a couple reviews on here, do you know when you'd be able to get to it? 19:34:08 Siri: I've provided my input, but it's just placement of plus signs and things like that 19:34:10 jongunderson has joined #aria-apg 19:34:56 MK: right now Jon is the only reviewer on here, if you could add an approving review if you're OK with that, that would be good 19:35:12 Siri: as I said, did we make a few tweaks to it, could we move the chevrons? 19:35:46 SH: since those aren't things changed in this PR, I think it'd be better to open a separate issue 19:35:49 Siri: I'll do that 19:36:19 MK: so Seth, you have a PR you want to add? 19:36:37 Seth: PR https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2169 19:36:47 MK: Fix broken links affecting redesign 19:37:11 present+ jongund 19:37:37 ST: these were broken links that are being affected by how we're traversing the content and building structure from the existing respec doc, but this change will benefit people using the existing examples today 19:37:56 ST: Actually it looks like the build is passing, it looks like I mistook my blocked merge for a failed test 19:38:23 ST: I believe they all have to do with an incorrect link to a role and prop anchor or a link that's relative that has the wrong number of dir traversals 19:38:32 MK: so it's just a set of changes to hrefs? 19:39:01 ST: yes, every single line change is just a change to the href 19:39:08 JN: all in examples, not in the base doc? 19:39:19 ST: yes, that's correct 19:39:27 JN: I'm guessing the link checkers weren't checking the examples subdirectory 19:39:42 JN: not surprising to me 19:39:55 ST: we can open an issue for that as a followup too 19:40:07 MK: alright I"ll take care of this today 19:40:26 TOPIC: APG Home Page Redesign 19:40:45 MK: welcome back Isaac! 19:41:19 ID: today I wanted to talk a little about the vision and goals for the homepage 19:41:40 ID: I went through the minutes of a meeting from last year where this topic was discussed, and pulled out ideas from there that I'd like to go over 19:41:56 ID: I'm just going to go through the main things discussed there as ideas 19:42:28 ID: one of the main things was we want to move away from this wall of text format and focus on guiding folks that might be unfamiliar with APG rather than having it primarily for people who are experience, because they already know how to find those things 19:42:46 ID: so focusing on folks that are new to APG, content that explains how APG is related to ARIA, make it simple and welcoming 19:43:12 ID: have easy to use resources and info. A few example sites were React JS, Ember JS, that do a really good job with their homepages 19:43:41 ID: another idea was to have a section that shows the most used pattern, most visited pattern. More room for other types of research, maybe about landmark regions, stuff like that 19:43:49 ID: so an area to showcase popular areas of the APG 19:43:58 ID: maybe have that be a rotating set of popular resources 19:44:18 ID: the last idea was having a place where we can ask for help from the community, maybe if we're working on something where we want feedback 19:44:29 ID: so a place to try to get that sort of participation from the community 19:44:42 ID: I can also see that being a good place for announcements of any kind, like if we have a new design pattern 19:45:17 ID: so that's what I pulled from the minutes, I feel like I have a really good set of ideas to get started on a wireframe and proposal. I also want to have a chance to see if anyone else has anything else they want to share, or any other ideas 19:45:46 MK: Isaac do you have a idea about how long it will take to put together the first couple ideas for wireframes? 19:46:44 ID: this week and next week I want to try to have one proposal ready. Today and tomorrow I'll work on this, and next week I'll continue Mon/Tues. I think that should be enough to have a direction to share. I don't know if I'll have something ready by Tuesday, but maybe mid-next week where people can start providing feedback, and the following meeting we can have an item in the agenda to properly discuss it 19:46:48 MK: that sounds good 19:47:32 MK: for the very first homepage especially was the idea that we wouldn't make any new content. That it would exist by taking snippets of existing content, making cards like you did for other pieces of APG. One thing we don't want to have to do in the next few weeks is come up with new content that we don't have 19:47:41 ID: that's something I wanted to bring up: content and copyright 19:47:58 ID: because we won't be creating new content, I think we might need help with copyrighting for small things 19:48:27 ID: I think we have some good ideas for how things are going to look like, but at some point I think we might need someone who can help with tweaking that copy 19:48:37 ID: I was wondering if anyone here might be interested in helping a little with that 19:48:45 MK: for sure, copy is one of the things I focus on the most 19:48:52 MK: but if there's anyone else who would want to contribute 19:49:05 MK: a way to do this is we put together a design with proposed copy, then get feedback 19:49:07 ID: soudns good 19:49:19 s/soudns/sounds 19:49:31 ID: I'll get to work and share progress as soon as I have a solid direction, probably mid next week 19:49:54 TOPIC: ARIA APG 1.3 Annotations 19:50:01 MK: lets take the last 10 min on annotations 19:50:22 MK: there are 6 issues in progress in the next steps column of the annotations board 19:50:51 MK: there are still generic github issues here. Actually 4 relevant issues 19:52:20 MK: for the annotations, we need to decide what we're going to design, what are the things we need to create 19:52:31 MK: I think it's going to be what James talked about before, some sort of static page 19:52:44 https://codepen.io/aleventhal/full/VxByVK/ 19:52:56 MK: trying to think which one of these issues -- we have suggestion, comment, details, is that it for roles? 19:53:27 MK: usually we want a realistic use case on an example page. So my first question is, do people have suggestions on what that would be? 19:53:36 MK: I don't think we want to recreate something like google docs 19:53:47 MK: what would be something semi-realistic? 19:54:08 JN: Aaron has a codepen with a bunch of examples of markup within it. It's not far off what I would consider a good thing 19:54:26 JN: it's markup for an online word processor semantic coverage 19:54:33 MK: so it is intended to be an edit field? 19:54:36 JN: yeah 19:54:49 JN: just with contenteditable, yeah. It's got some suggestions and comments below 19:54:59 JN: it's a good start for somebody looking at what to do for this 19:55:14 MK: so you are advocating that we should use the editor use case to start with 19:55:31 JN: I don't see why we wouldn't. As long as people aren't going to freak out that it's just using contenteditable for an editor 19:55:46 MK: I was a little concerned about the potential testing ramifications there, but if the testing is narrowly scoped 19:56:04 MK: do we know if screen readers even intended to support this markup in contenteditable? Is it supposed to work in contenteditable? 19:56:10 JN: I don't know, it probably should, right? 19:56:42 MK: yeah I guess. If that's a use case that we should experiment with, then that gives me a sense of a direction to go in 19:56:54 MK: is there anybody in a position to start working on it with Aaron's codepen? 19:57:18 MK: Jon, is that something you'd be willing to try? 19:57:38 SH: I think Jon had to leave 19:57:55 MK: I guess that'll be our first step there, find someone with bandwidth to work on coding it 19:58:20 MK: Sarah do you see any concerns with a contenteditable? 19:58:28 SH: no, that's what I was thinking would be a good example as well 19:59:22 JN: I think the example in the codepen can be simplified, it's covering way more than we need to cover 19:59:27 MK: what would you leave out, James? 19:59:40 JN: just too much stuff, the document is too long and has too many comments. It's just more than we need 19:59:48 MK: oh yeah, we want the example to be as brief as possible 19:59:56 JN: it includes epub roles too that we don't need to be including in this 20:00:19 JN: we should keep it very targeted. We can maybe have other things that have epub roles, but we should target it an not overreach 20:00:24 MK: we should have just the stuff in ARIA 1.3 20:00:37 JN: there are some things Aaron is relying on that aren't in 1.3, and I think it's fair to use those 20:00:42 JN: they're in dpub ARIA 20:01:02 MK: OK, that gives us a direction 20:01:10 MK: I'll try to capture it in one of the issues 20:01:36 rrsagent, make minutes 20:01:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html sarah_higley