14:48:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:48:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/04-silver-irc
14:48:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:48:45 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:49:11 <janina> janina has joined #silver
14:49:17 <Lauriat> agenda+ TPAC 2022
14:49:58 <Lauriat> agenda+ Update on rechartering discussion from Tuesday
14:50:14 <Lauriat> agenda+ Update on Protocols
14:50:15 <Lauriat> agenda+ WCAG 2.x to WCAG 3 Migration process gap to fill: research
14:51:49 <janina> agenda?
14:51:52 <janina> present+
15:00:03 <Chuck_> Chuck_ has joined #silver
15:00:07 <Chuck_> present+
15:00:11 <JenniferS> JenniferS has joined #silver
15:00:15 <JenniferS> present+
15:02:41 <Chuck_> agenda?
15:03:20 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
15:03:42 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #silver
15:03:54 <Rachael> present+
15:04:16 <janina> scribe: janina
15:04:18 <Makoto> present+
15:04:28 <janina> zakim, next item
15:04:28 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC 2022 -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:04:43 <SuzanneTaylor> SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver
15:04:50 <janina> shawNotes TPAC 2022 is announced
15:05:02 <janina> shawWill be a hybrid event; physical and virtual
15:05:13 <janina> shawVancouver, BC; September 12-16
15:05:25 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver
15:05:30 <janina> shawStill getting organized; but save the dates!
15:06:10 <Azlan> present+
15:06:35 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
15:06:58 <janina> zakim, next item
15:06:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Update on rechartering discussion from Tuesday -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:07:30 <janina> shadi: Notes rechartering conversation; update for now ...
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15:08:12 <sarahhorton> present+
15:08:14 <janina> shadi: Discussion raised in Tuesday AGWG; good participation; and a distribution of responses of how to go forward--so no clear consensus yet
15:08:39 <shadi> s/shadi/lauriat
15:08:47 <shadi> s/shadi/lauriat/G
15:09:04 <Chuck_> q+
15:09:23 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:09:48 <janina> Chuck_: Chairs are reviewing feedback; notes chairs also not yet in consensus on best approach either
15:10:04 <janina> Chuck_: So, conversation currently is how best to engage and move forward?
15:10:42 <janina> zakim, next item
15:10:42 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update on Protocols -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:11:02 <janina> Lauriat: Regretably, FJ unavailable last minute
15:11:02 <Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tAv4PT8vsyMWNTw_-9r0HyBuDrP7vhR_4l6oXWtuovs/edit#
15:11:19 <janina> Rachael: Notes nothing finalized; this is just a progress update
15:11:34 <janina> Rachael: Reactions very welcome, however
15:12:01 <janina> Rachael: Point is achieve outcomes we don't know how to measure
15:12:15 <janina> Rachael: Trying to find a way to do that
15:12:27 <janina> Rachael: About procedures to reach an outcome
15:12:41 <janina> Rachael: protocols evaluate objective
15:12:55 <janina> Rachael: ex: we know we want plain language; but how to evaluate?
15:13:05 <Lauriat> q+ to ask about how protocol-type things might shift as we figure out how to more concretely measure the outcomes
15:13:05 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
15:13:45 <kirkwood> present+
15:14:00 <janina> Lauriat: Asks how protocols might shift in the future?
15:14:16 <Chuck_> q+ to answer Shawn's question
15:14:24 <Lauriat> ack me
15:14:24 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about how protocol-type things might shift as we figure out how to more concretely measure the outcomes
15:14:28 <janina> Lauriat: If we find a more concrete way to measure in the future, how and what happens?
15:14:37 <janina> Rachael: good question!
15:14:48 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:14:48 <Zakim> Chuck_, you wanted to answer Shawn's question
15:15:20 <janina> Chuck_: We do have the general goal that WCAG3 should be more nimble and able to update
15:15:33 <janina> Chuck_: but we're still not clear what a protocol is
15:15:40 <Lauriat> ack SuzanneTaylor
15:15:47 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: Would like to see another point added
15:16:22 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: Suggest can group higher levels, e.g. AAA, in a way that helps decisioning; e.g. in an educational environment
15:17:12 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: Believes audience specific application could help different audience groups
15:17:35 <Jem> present+ jemma
15:18:04 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: Notes Childrens CG seemed an appropriate audience for this approach
15:18:25 <Lauriat> q?
15:18:52 <janina> Rachael: Key question will be how to score, or whether to
15:19:13 <janina> Rachael: also, do they define their own mechanism for measurement? Will measures vary by protocol?
15:19:42 <janina> Rachael: Content Usable, Plan Language .gov is another possible ...
15:19:45 <Chuck_> q+
15:20:01 <janina> Rachael: granularity level is another question
15:20:15 <janina> Rachael: Michael created a proposal ...
15:20:36 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:21:15 <janina> Chuck_: We'd like to work from real world examples that "felt" like what could be helpful; would guide us in the definition
15:21:28 <janina> Chuck_: Believe we're getting there, but not quite there yet
15:21:57 <janina> Chuck_: Also noting an open welcome for more participants!
15:21:58 <Lauriat> q+ to note the HTML, ARIA, Apple Human Interface Guidelines notes as potential protocols
15:21:58 <kirkwood> i’d be interested
15:22:07 <sarahhorton> q+
15:22:31 <janina> Lauriat: Looking at possible examples ... html validation; aria practices; etc
15:22:47 <janina> Lauriat: might be a better way for what's robust
15:22:49 <janina> q+
15:22:54 <Chuck_> ack Lau
15:22:54 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to note the HTML, ARIA, Apple Human Interface Guidelines notes as potential protocols
15:23:17 <janina> Lauriat: so a way for accounting for something that jight be off spec, but doesn't break a11y
15:23:34 <kirkwood> +1 to Shawn, very good point!
15:23:45 <Lauriat> ack me
15:24:03 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
15:24:18 <Jem> agenda?
15:24:33 <janina> sarahhorton: wondering difference outcomes and objectives; is that Outcomes as in the normative WCAG3 spec?
15:24:36 <Lauriat> Protocols/Protocols Proposal link referenced <-- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Protocols/Protocols_Proposal_2022-01
15:24:47 <janina> Rachael: need to better define, of course
15:25:18 <janina> sarahhorton: also evaluate a bit confusing
15:25:24 <Lauriat> ack janina
15:25:52 <Chuck_> Janina:  Ask about the other end of the scale.  Note track publication.  We've got one fairly close to being done, that will say "you have these tolerances when you combine different media..."
15:26:12 <Chuck_> Janina:  Are you going to build into specs?  Are protocols specifically for addressing things we do not know how to measure?
15:26:29 <Jem> q+ follow up on Shawn
15:26:40 <Chuck_> Rachael:  If I understand the question, yes, it's about things we don't know how to measure otherwise.
15:26:59 <Jem> Q+
15:27:01 <janina> janina: Just clarifying that any Note that provides specific parameters would be handled more traditionally, in WCAG3 normative guidance itself
15:27:03 <Chuck_> Rachael:  <Reads from Michael's proposal> confirming.
15:27:04 <Rachael> janina: Ask about the other end of the scale. If we get a W3C note track publication that can be testable, would it still be a protocol?
15:27:11 <kirkwood> great plain language explanation by MC
15:27:17 <Lauriat> ack Jem
15:27:24 <JenniferS> present+
15:27:55 <janina> Jem: trying to understand how aria best practices would be used as a protocol
15:28:25 <janina> Jem: We create examples to clarify the spec; aria in our case
15:28:41 <Lauriat> https://aria-at.w3.org/ --> ARIA-AT may make a better fit than APG?
15:28:59 <janina> Jem: so we should consider examples where we don't know how to measure something we want to achieve?
15:29:20 <Rachael> the driving reason to create Protocols is to address accessibility outcomes for which we do not know how to define testable methods
15:29:48 <janina> Lauriat: would aria at make a better protocol than apg?
15:30:03 <janina> jem aria at project?
15:30:06 <janina> Lauriat: yes
15:30:32 <janina> Jem: aria at validates examples with different screen readers
15:30:39 <Chuck_> q+ to answer the question of what may make better examples
15:31:16 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:31:16 <Zakim> Chuck_, you wanted to answer the question of what may make better examples
15:31:36 <Rachael> q+
15:31:58 <janina> Chuck_: examples for us are an attempt to discover what seems to fit; to get a better understanding of what the opportunity is
15:32:09 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
15:32:52 <janina> Rachael: Rachael: so if we look at apg; might it perhaps illustrate what is not a good example?
15:33:50 <janina> Jem: notes it's a very specific testing procedure
15:34:04 <Jem> https://aria-at.w3.org/reports/281/targets/13#result-MDI0YeyIxMiI6NDF9zA1OG
15:34:24 <janina> Lauriat: so perhaps testing, but also expected outcomes
15:34:35 <janina> Jem: notes it's very granular
15:35:04 <sarahhorton> q+
15:35:08 <shadi> present+
15:35:17 <Jem> https://aria-at.w3.org/reports/281
15:35:18 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
15:35:36 <janina> sarahhorton: had thought it might include process like Maturity Model?
15:35:37 <JenniferS> q+
15:35:43 <Chuck_> +1 to Sarah's point that protocols COULD include maturity model or other processes
15:35:49 <janina> sarahhorton: or perhaps protocols for 3rd party?
15:36:05 <Chuck_> q+
15:36:09 <Chuck_> ack Jennif
15:37:34 <janina> JenniferS: Recalls early idea included some non W3C, IEEE, or BBC, ...
15:37:42 <Jem> The first literal definitions of "protocol" is "the official procedure or system of rules governing affairs of state or diplomatic occasions."
15:38:00 <janina> JenniferS: providing good guidelines for making decisions
15:38:38 <Jem> another definition of protocol is "a formal or official record of scientific experimental observations."
15:39:05 <janina> JenniferS: Could include things that aren't easily quantified, else would be easily incorporated in WCAG
15:40:00 <janina> Lauriat: +1 to looking at what is best guidance that we want to support; we see this as our contribution to what regulators could use
15:40:20 <janina> Lauriat: but some might not yet be as clear as would be desired there
15:40:23 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:40:41 <kirkwood> one most important is that it’s enforceable for ‘regulation’
15:41:18 <janina> Chuck_: notes that the concept of processes inspired us to consider protocols topic
15:41:44 <Rachael> Thank you all for taking the time to give feedback!
15:42:12 <janina> Jem: notes definition copied in above ...
15:42:43 <janina> Jem: asks whether it tracks
15:42:47 <janina> Chuck_: happy with it
15:42:58 <Chuck_> s/happy/grappling/
15:43:12 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
15:43:17 <janina> Rachael: reminds we don't yet have a definition
15:43:32 <janina> Rachael: points discussed will help us get one
15:43:33 <Lauriat> ack SuzanneTaylor
15:43:43 <Jem> agenda?
15:44:17 <Lauriat> +1 to Suzanne, that matches the impression I have for how this might work
15:45:12 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
15:45:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- WCAG 2.x to WCAG 3 Migration process gap to fill: research -- taken up [from Lauriat]
15:45:31 <Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.usv6j46q7db
15:46:04 <janina> Lauriat: to recap ... above is getting old, but may not a revisit
15:46:33 <janina> Lauriat: our thought was grouping SC by fundamental user needs
15:46:47 <janina> Lauriat: notes groupings in above doc
15:46:56 <janina> Lauriat: first is images of various kinds
15:47:39 <janina> Lauriat: then how best to validate user needs are met;
15:47:48 <janina> Lauriat: now believe we missed a step ...
15:48:27 <janina> Lauriat: we didn't look at foundational research that lead to user needs
15:48:45 <janina> Lauriat: believe the research will help us show evidence based approach
15:49:22 <janina> Lauriat: asks whether that sounds correct? rather than going directly from SC plus Understanding docs
15:49:55 <janina> Lauriat: how difficult might it be to find the research behind the SC/Understanding docs?
15:50:31 <Chuck_> q+
15:50:55 <Lauriat> ack Chuck_
15:51:15 <janina> Chuck_: not sure; participants on this call not likely the ones to ask, though
15:51:18 <sarahhorton> q+
15:51:25 <janina> Chuck_: believe others might know
15:51:28 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
15:52:19 <janina> sarahhorton: also don't know; but noting errors group did not start from this doc; used more like an ideation process
15:53:04 <janina> sarahhorton: believe that starting from user needs was fruitful
15:53:30 <janina> sarahhorton: "content template" ... something like that?
15:54:10 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: was an interesting process; though with some risk
15:54:36 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: it's thorough; can identify best solutions
15:55:06 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: would want to give more credit to better UI to begin with
15:55:19 <sarahhorton> Google doc with user need process: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gfYAiV2Z-FA_kEHYlLV32J8ClNEGPxRgSIohu3gUHEA/edit#heading=h.s6cmfinlgb3q
15:55:41 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: but we don't credit doing it correctly; could we write a guideline to point to better solution?
15:56:32 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: found myself conjecturing sometimes
15:57:15 <janina> Lauriat: that's why it's a design; because there's just so much research
15:58:46 <sarahhorton> q+
15:58:55 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
15:59:44 <janina> sarahhorton: agree about risk; perhaps we look at user needs as candidate proposal for community response/feedback before we go further with it
16:00:20 <janina> sarahhorton: iterative interaction with communities of interest might produce best outcomes
16:00:50 <janina> Lauriat: exactly, looking for good structure for making progress; so not just our opinions in isolation
16:01:11 <SuzanneTaylor> (on agendum 3: "protocol" may refer to an intermediary process/document that helps to connect WCAG to the "protocol" documents and standards so this use of "protocol" might make sense with the definition that Jemma brought up)
16:01:51 <janina> zakim, bye
16:01:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been janina, Chuck_, JenniferS, Rachael, Makoto, Azlan, SuzanneTaylor, sarahhorton, kirkwood, jemma, shadi
16:01:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver
16:01:56 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/04-silver-minutes.html janina
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