14:12:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #personalization
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14:12:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
14:12:42 <trackbot> Date: 31 January 2022
14:13:11 <sharon> agenda+ Content Module Implementations Status (Follow-up on i18n issue #144)
14:13:25 <sharon> agenda+ Defining short names for the modules
14:13:40 <sharon> agenda+ Planning COGA January meeting on Our Other Two Modules
14:14:19 <sharon> chair: Sharon
14:53:17 <janina> janina has joined #personalization
14:57:32 <JF> JF has joined #personalization
14:57:45 <janina> present+
14:57:49 <JF> Present+
14:57:53 <JF> agenda?
14:58:16 <Matthew_Atkinson> Matthew_Atkinson has joined #personalization
14:58:25 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
15:04:08 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
15:04:14 <CharlesL> present+
15:04:58 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:07:01 <CharlesL> zakim, next item
15:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Content Module Implementations Status (Follow-up on i18n issue #144) -- taken up [from sharon]
15:07:08 <becky> becky has joined #personalization
15:07:16 <becky> present+
15:08:47 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: we had an extension but it doesn't work with data- attributes nor all the symbol concepts in the recipe example for #144. we had to modify the extension to work with this example created, so we can show i18n WG and hopefully we can get this resolved.
15:08:55 <CharlesL> …, showing a demo
15:10:01 <sharon> q?
15:10:40 <CharlesL> …, showing symbols both LtoR in English and RtoL in Arabic.
15:10:46 <JF> Q+
15:11:34 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi has joined #personalization
15:11:40 <sharon> ack JF
15:11:43 <mike_beganyi> present+
15:12:03 <CharlesL> JF: ??? is fluent in symbol languages
15:12:22 <CharlesL> … from the EU
15:12:39 <JF> s/?? /EA Draffin
15:12:40 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: also check with Steve Lee
15:13:37 <CharlesL> JF: I was wondering about the spacing
15:14:10 <CharlesL> Janina: not sure if we need to deal with that for issue 144, but eventually yes we will need to look into that.
15:14:43 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: we just want to make sure this is acceptable to then present to the i18n WG for issue 144
15:14:59 <CharlesL> q+
15:15:16 <sharon> ack CharlesL
15:17:28 <JF> Q+
15:18:04 <sharon> ack JF
15:18:21 <CharlesL> Charles: lets look at two examples RtoL and LtoR beside each other to make sure the symbols do reverse correctly.
15:19:46 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: seems there might be differences in grammar which may be causing the differences in symbols.  Need to check with Lion	el.
15:20:29 <CharlesL> JF: for issue 144 the translation happened and then the symbols were added.  We want to make sure they are clear on what we have done.
15:21:34 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: Symbols here I Don't know if they are to flip in a RtoL language.  looks like they have, but are they  to flip as well?  Need to send to Lionel.
15:23:09 <CharlesL> JF: I would question why, maybe flipping the symbol we may be changing the meaning.
15:23:29 <CharlesL> Janina: we can speculate but lets check with experts first.
15:24:30 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: We can easily add code to flip symbols but we will find out.  Ask to discuss on list if we are ready and send it to i18N chairs as well.
15:25:31 <CharlesL> …, Lisa said it was ok to share with Sharon and Lionel.
15:25:44 <sharon> q?
15:25:46 <CharlesL> …, I will find some way to send to Lisa if she was unable to get the files.
15:26:23 <CharlesL> Sharon: we have a plan for 144
15:26:35 <CharlesL> zakim, next item
15:26:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Defining short names for the modules -- taken up [from sharon]
15:26:38 <sharon> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Personalization-module-renaming-discussion
15:27:15 <janina> q+
15:27:20 <CharlesL> Sharon: I created a wiki page with all the suggestions in this wiki page.  I pulled all the comments as well for each variation we suggested.
15:27:27 <CharlesL> Becky: I added some
15:27:47 <CharlesL> Janina: I couldn't figure out how to edit or add anything.  I was logged in.
15:27:59 <CharlesL> Becky: once I was logged in I could edit.
15:29:26 <CharlesL> janina: same H3 headings were all the same text for the headings
15:29:39 <JF> Q+
15:29:58 <CharlesL> Becky: I just added some additional options, looking at a Thesaurus lookup
15:30:57 <CharlesL> Sharon: we had so many different flavors John recommended putting it in a wiki, and to add comments to try to come to a consensus.  It will have a number of updates to make once we make a decision.
15:31:17 <janina> q+
15:31:30 <CharlesL> Becky: I am happy with Personalization, Adaptive, individualized, transformation, etc.
15:31:40 <sharon> ack janina
15:33:49 <CharlesL> janina: I would like to keep some form of "personal"… if we drop that we loose years of association with this group.  I do like adaptation and to the left of the colon so Personalization / Adaptation,  I did want to get away from transformation.  Having issues trying to edit the wiki page.
15:34:09 <sharon> ack JF
15:34:17 <CharlesL> …, might be a bug to file or training.  happy to jump on a zoom call to figure it out.
15:34:58 <janina> q+
15:35:11 <Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to janina above
15:35:11 <Matthew_Atkinson> This is where JF is searching for specs with "Module": https://www.w3.org/TR/
15:35:29 <CharlesL> JF: Do we even use "Module" when searching for CSS in W3C about 50% use Module vs. not using it.  So do we really need to use Module specifically.
15:35:51 <CharlesL> janina: I think we decided that specifically a couple weeks ago.
15:35:58 <sharon> ack janina
15:36:16 <CharlesL> Sharon: Yes that has been decided to include "module"
15:36:34 <CharlesL> …, should we put a survey to the list and should we narrow this down
15:37:45 <CharlesL> janina: yes narrow it down, anyone opposed to "adaptation" be included.  I would proposed "personalized adaptation: <name> module
15:37:45 <Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to 'personal*' and 'adaptation' being to the left of the colon
15:38:03 <mike_beganyi> q+
15:38:14 <CharlesL> sharon: I would like "personal adaptation: <name> module
15:38:55 <CharlesL> …, clarification, I like both personal or personalized
15:39:05 <JF> -1 to adaptation, as many of the attributes do NOT "adapt" anything
15:39:29 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
15:40:01 <janina> q+
15:40:04 <CharlesL> JF: we are providing hooks to do adaptation, but we are not doing it.
15:40:34 <CharlesL> …, the over arching goal is to add the semantic information.
15:40:46 <CharlesL> …, machine recognizable
15:40:55 <sharon> ack mike_beganyi
15:41:17 <CharlesL> mike_beganyi: I do like personalized adaptation does seem pretty clear.
15:41:23 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
15:42:17 <JF> attribute: helptype - "Would be used on additional content to indicate the type of extra help provided. helptype can be used on a span, div, link or image that provides or redirects the user to additional help information."
15:42:49 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: I agree with John just said, our spec does not do any adaptation, but we had discussion about the addition of semantics, but the end goal is to get things adapted to meet their personal needs.  It doesn't tell how we are going to do it.
15:43:03 <JF> Q+
15:43:36 <CharlesL> …, if you have any examples where this would be incorrect we should look at that.  I agree with you John, but I think this is more about the goals than the method.
15:43:46 <sharon> ack janina
15:43:55 <JF> attribute: moreinfo - "moreinfo provides users access to additional information about the current content in one of several formats.  A personalization agent may add additional explanatory text or provide an action for the user to take to obtain more detailed information about the content."
15:45:03 <CharlesL> janina: I agree with John as well, a number of specs do this we are making it possible to adapt content and get predictable results.  I think adaptations is appropriate.
15:45:07 <sharon> ack JF
15:45:13 <CharlesL> JF: I respectfully disagree.
15:46:32 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
15:46:49 <janina> q+
15:46:53 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
15:46:57 <CharlesL> …, our second module, help type we recognize that there are different types.  More info as well.  if we use adaptation people who aren't aware of the history.  I think Personalization: <name> module is sufficient.
15:47:41 <sharon> q?
15:47:49 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: so that wouldn't be including semantics which could be confused.  there is a misconception that with just Personalized is just a persona
15:47:57 <JF> "The messageimportance attribute is used to indicate the priority level of a message . This can be helpful for a person who gets overwhelmed with messages and filter out low messages and concentrate on critical priority messages."
15:48:40 <CharlesL> …, landmarks some UA don't bother with it, only landmarks can be used by AT or browser extensions, could be a counter example.
15:48:50 <sharon> ack janina
15:49:24 <JF> Q:
15:49:32 <JF> Q+
15:50:42 <CharlesL> janina: we discussed that the point that word personalization : was confusing people and expectation were all over the map.  Personalization applies to everyone, adaptation strongly is connected with accessibility.  adding more help or telling someone the different types of help is a form of adaptation.  why I feel strongly to keep this.
15:50:45 <sharon> ack JF
15:51:18 <janina> q+
15:52:41 <CharlesL> JF: I strongly disagree.  Message important There is no adapting it is a filtering.  I can understand the concern about personalization going back to WCAG 2.1. putting that as a requirement was not going to fly.  Yes it can be used for navigation but its also a css selector, the personalization here absolutely benefits a11y but others as well.
15:52:43 <sharon> ack janina
15:53:15 <CharlesL> janina: this was to do a survey since not everyone is here.
15:53:37 <CharlesL> …, we should do a survey vs. email for these two options.
15:53:55 <CharlesL> personalized adaptation: <name> module
15:54:29 <CharlesL> personalization: <name> module
15:54:46 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
15:55:01 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
15:55:42 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: wondering about this issue is adaptation needed to counter any misunderstandings.  but the driver for that was confusion.  Was it confusion within the COGA group?
15:55:50 <CharlesL> janina: No that was for using numbering.
15:56:19 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: would be nice to point to something.
15:56:34 <JF> Q+
15:56:55 <CharlesL> janina: came outside of WAI, email, I will look for it.  COGA is about the module 1, 2, 3 etc.
15:57:21 <JF> Personalization Semantics: [term] Module
15:57:23 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: we feel we need to do this because of xyz confusion.
15:57:49 <CharlesL> JF: if we feel we need to add a qualifier, we are applying semantics.
15:58:01 <CharlesL> Personalization Semantics: <name> module
15:59:37 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: this came up before, fear we may be locked into something in the future, content / semantics but we would like to do both. agree with John yes we are adding semantics, personalization on its own also caused issues so thats is why we looked for a qualifier.
15:59:58 <CharlesL> janina: Sharons email is going to say are we voting on 3 alternatives or 2.
16:00:02 <JF> For the minutes, I *STRONGLY* object to Adaptation in the titles
16:01:09 <CharlesL> Matthew_Atkinson: Lisa also had some concerns.
16:01:28 <CharlesL> janina: I think we are down to 2
16:02:17 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:02:31 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/31-personalization-minutes.html CharlesL