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15:41:14 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
15:41:14 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
15:41:25 <avneeshsingh> present+
15:41:38 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
15:42:52 <avneeshsingh> zakim, agenda+ Which are the more frequently used DPUB ARIA roles?
15:42:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
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15:43:17 <avneeshsingh> zakim, agenda+ Overview of the feedback received by EDRLab, France for User experience guide for accessibility metadata.
15:43:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:43:36 <avneeshsingh> zakim, agenda+ Next call?
15:43:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
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16:03:20 <zheng_xu> scribe zheng_xu
16:03:52 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
16:03:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Which are the more frequently used DPUB ARIA roles? -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
16:03:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pcg-a11y
16:04:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:04:20 <avneeshsingh> main issue:
16:04:22 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643
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16:04:26 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh hand over to mgarrish to the first agenda
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16:04:57 <zheng_xu> mgarrish basically it was raised in Aria about a number of issues related to Aria module
16:06:15 <zheng_xu> ... the dpub aria is to trying to improve dpub aria better than put role into aria
16:06:38 <zheng_xu> ... we can document better to help understand aria practice guide
16:06:58 <tzviya> s/aria practice guide/ARIA Authoring Practices Guide
16:07:09 <zheng_xu> ... there are about 47 rules but what is the most important roles for us to document
16:07:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/rules/roles
16:07:53 <zheng_xu> ... for this meeting, it's basically to narrow the larger rules to smaller list
16:08:01 <tzviya> s/rules/roles
16:08:35 <zheng_xu> (I lost this part :( )
16:09:34 <tzviya> q+
16:09:52 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh one thing we wanted to notice is chrome including playbooks has large improvement on epub-aria support
16:10:03 <tzviya> s/(I lost this part :( )//
16:10:25 <GeorgeK> q+
16:10:51 <zheng_xu> ... the main objective of this meeting is priotizing epub area roles
16:10:57 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:11:06 <avneeshsingh> ack tzviy
16:11:55 <zheng_xu> tzviya I think Apple is not refusing to implement it but their concern is if google implementation is good enough
16:12:12 <zheng_xu> ... and want to conform with society such as JAWS and other
16:12:29 <avneeshsingh> ack george
16:12:52 <tzviya> s/ think Apple is not refusing to implement it but their concern is if google implementation/I think Apple
16:13:12 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK my concern is once webkit implement it would it duplicate with other world
16:13:20 <tzviya> s/ think Apple is not refusing to implement it but their concern is if google implementation/I think Apple's concern is that the Chrome implementation might be too much
16:14:18 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh aria's response is to expose aria
16:14:33 <zheng_xu> ... they don't tell AT what to speak and how to speak
16:14:38 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:15:19 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:15:32 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK people might have with different requirement for super tech users
16:15:51 <zheng_xu> ... they process information different with normal people
16:15:57 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:16:09 <zheng_xu> ... how can we satisfy both needs
16:16:40 <avneeshsingh> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1atUkcAbkHpS5eUJ1rdDCrQ3saY8HZEMTNtWkanASLo4/edit?usp=sharing
16:16:50 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh we came into a prioritize the roles above
16:17:29 <zheng_xu> ... we ended up with having 50+ High and Critical items in the list. how can we narrow it down a bit more
16:17:31 <CharlesL> q+
16:17:42 <zheng_xu> ... and how to move forward with this list
16:17:52 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:18:21 <GeorgeK> q+
16:18:21 <avneeshsingh> ack charles
16:18:30 <tzviya> q+ to suggest a way forward
16:18:32 <avneeshsingh> ack george
16:19:18 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh the higher items are actionable items
16:19:22 <avneeshsingh> ack tzviya
16:19:22 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest a way forward
16:19:46 <zheng_xu> tzviya I think it's how we could sell this list to APG
16:20:20 <zheng_xu> ... maybe we can group some of them but not suggest to remove yet
16:20:41 <zheng_xu> ... suggest not start with importancy of list items
16:20:48 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:21:32 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh should we go through high priority items one by one?
16:21:55 <zheng_xu> CharlesL starting with items from top
16:22:12 <zheng_xu> ... most of items are Structural
16:22:12 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:22:29 <zheng_xu> ... doc-toc is the highest one obviously
16:22:42 <mgarrish> q+
16:23:01 <avneeshsingh> ack mg
16:23:15 <zheng_xu> mgarrish just needed some clarification
16:23:35 <zheng_xu> ... is there any policy to define Critical, High and other level
16:23:52 <zheng_xu> ... so we could use the criteria
16:23:59 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:24:42 <zheng_xu> CharlesL there is a lot of epubs that publisher is putting in. So we needed this to be clear that publisher could label book correctly
16:25:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:25:18 <zheng_xu> ...might need more publisher to help answer this
16:25:39 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:26:04 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK there seems to be some items that is only used by publisher but not other industry
16:26:26 <zheng_xu> ... such as doc-index and some of others
16:26:46 <avneeshsingh> ack bill
16:27:08 <zheng_xu> Bill_Kasdorf some of the items are related to publisher's workflow
16:28:09 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:28:09 <zheng_xu> ... one thing is once it's published for example some section will always have the same header such as "Abstract", "Appendix"
16:28:23 <zheng_xu> ... how we could help reader to understand that
16:29:44 <zheng_xu> CharlesL answering Paul's question. Good questions, Benetech and Daisy might need to survey end users
16:30:20 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh there is an issue that W3C does not really connect to end users and community is doing that
16:30:55 <zheng_xu> ... can we look at the list from end user perspective as well?
16:31:30 <zheng_xu> pascal I think some of the items might also impact to end user a lot
16:32:05 <zheng_xu> ... the title of the section from end user perspective is to use it to determine if I should read the section.
16:32:40 <zheng_xu> ... I also think we could probably find end users through some organizations
16:32:56 <mgarrish> q+
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16:33:35 <Madeleine> +Present
16:33:41 <zheng_xu> tzviya footnote and other types of notes might get higher priority but I understand it's not a lot books having hundreds of notes
16:34:12 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK the critical items I think are some of these are blocking user from reading the book
16:34:26 <zheng_xu> ... for example so many notes that user can not read the book
16:34:48 <zheng_xu> ... if any marks could help end user understand that then they can at least read the book
16:35:09 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:35:26 <zheng_xu> ... so, if any items could help user to read the book then should be critical
16:35:59 <zheng_xu> ... or for example page number might be very noisy for end user as well
16:36:11 <avneeshsingh> ack mg
16:36:13 <zheng_xu> ... since it was read aloud each page
16:36:54 <zheng_xu> mgarrish when I look at the list I am thinking if any items one step below Critical it should be great help user to read the book
16:37:21 <zheng_xu> ... for example bibliography maybe should be Medium
16:37:35 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:37:58 <zheng_xu> CharlesL let's review critical items
16:38:12 <zheng_xu> ... doc-backlink, any objection to have it in Critical?
16:38:19 <zheng_xu> (no)
16:38:28 <zheng_xu> ... next biblioref, good
16:38:40 <zheng_xu> ... glossref, good
16:38:48 <zheng_xu> ... doc-index
16:40:12 <zheng_xu> index, bibliography and appendex suggest to move to Medium
16:40:24 <zheng_xu> next doc-noteref, keep
16:40:30 <gpellegrino> q+
16:40:40 <zheng_xu> next pagebreak and pagelist, keep
16:40:54 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
16:43:52 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK does pagelist has to be a list of 1 to 800?
16:44:04 <zheng_xu> CharlesL next doc-chapter
16:44:21 <zheng_xu> should it be high?
16:44:42 <zheng_xu> ... I think could be Critical?
16:45:08 <zheng_xu> tzviya if we don't consider it as Critical then we should leave a note there
16:45:13 <gpellegrino> q+
16:45:43 <zheng_xu> gpellegrino we usually split chapter to a different html file
16:46:09 <zheng_xu> ... I think it's probably high or medium
16:46:11 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
16:46:39 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK I can see publishers might use a separate file for "chapter"
16:46:56 <zheng_xu> ... I think it should keep as high
16:47:05 <zheng_xu> doc-conclusion move to Medium?
16:47:25 <zheng_xu> CharlesL doc-conclusion move to Medium. all agree
16:47:54 <zheng_xu> ... next doc-endnotes
16:48:03 <zheng_xu> GeorgeK I recommend to keep it as high
16:48:39 <zheng_xu> CharlesL do we tie doc-endnotes to doc-chapter?
16:49:06 <zheng_xu> Naomi endnotes is still a bit different from chapter
16:49:33 <zheng_xu> CharlesL move endnotes to Critical
16:49:44 <zheng_xu> ... next, doc-example
16:50:15 <zheng_xu> ... it depends on what kind of book structure we have
16:50:30 <zheng_xu> Naomi it could be a blocker for user to read the book
16:51:44 <zheng_xu> ... is it critical to say some items might be content specific item to be critical since it might be blocked in some type of books?
16:52:29 <zheng_xu> CharlesL doc-example move to Medium
16:52:58 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh should we assemble again next week for this list?
16:53:53 <zheng_xu> ... let's have one more week of discussion on this
16:54:07 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
16:54:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Overview of the feedback received by EDRLab, France for User experience guide for accessibility metadata -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
16:55:06 <zheng_xu> laurent_ for the a11y of epubs on each books, EDRLab we have a session of workshop coming soon
16:55:50 <zheng_xu> ... we presented some a11y guides to publishers such as onix and stuff
16:55:57 <zheng_xu> ... and we asked for feedback
16:56:46 <zheng_xu> ... one feedback is since the guide are provided by group of expert so when we put it to large audience they might not have much idea of certain items
16:57:56 <zheng_xu> ... so we did some proposal of different profile regarding to a11y for example certain profile for certain user group
16:58:35 <zheng_xu> ... there is also needs for search items
16:58:54 <zheng_xu> ... search accessibility contents
16:59:14 <zheng_xu> avneeshsingh bottom line is once we got this priority we need to come back to user experience
16:59:42 <zheng_xu> ... so, very interesting works ahead
17:00:04 <zheng_xu> ... thank you very much for the feedback
17:01:02 <zheng_xu> ... meet you all next week at the same time
17:01:23 <zheng_xu> zakmin make minits
17:01:47 <zheng_xu> zakim, end meeting
17:01:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been avneeshsingh, zheng_xu, GeorgeK__, mgarrish, gpellegrino, Naomi, laurent_, tzviya, Alex_Grover__, Bill_Kasdorf, Present
17:01:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/27-pcg-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:52 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, zheng_xu; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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17:02:41 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, make logs public
17:02:57 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/27-pcg-a11y-minutes.html avneeshsingh
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17:04:35 <avneeshsingh> zakim, leave
17:04:45 <avneeshsingh> zakim, bye
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